I am an ex-Scientologist. (LONG read)

[willhaven720]

I'm going to use this post as a primary means to response to the general comments about my last one. This one is most specific and therefore most useful.



I specified them. My reasons:

1. They are internet retards. They are the main source of every retarded, hackneyed internet joke that we have to contend with for fucking years after the fact any serious funny person has avoided it.
2. They are promulgators of child pornography. The chans are filled with the shit.
3. They are cowards.

I can add that their other political actions include vandalizing memorial websites for dead children and posting fake allegations of child abuse on the Oprah Winfrey show message boards (admittedly the last was hilarious and one of their only good jokes).



Cowards are cowards despite having good reasons to -be- cowards. They hide behind a mask because they haven't the balls to face the Church of Scientology mano-et-mano, even when they have supposedly thousands with them that are supporting them. This is the height of cowardice.

Who cares what the Church "can do" to you? If you're serious about attacking the Church, then be a man, take off the mask, and do it like real people do when they have a problem with things. Guy Fawkes masks don't make you cool. They make you look like a troglodyte churl.



The CoS commits precious few crimes. They commit, perhaps, cultish acts, but very few crimes. It is not a crime to tell someone they should do what you say.

Also, their very presence? Discredits the cause. When inferior people come out against something, superior people generally disregard what they say. 4chan is the epicentre of internet inferiority.



It isn't reason. It's nonsense like the bullshit that Will is spreading.

Will, seriously man, how the -fuck- are you supposed to have us believe your story? You're associated with a clown college, for Christ's sake. Why should we believe a single damn word of what you say, when you hide behind Sherdog and hide behind 4chan?

Seriously, guess what friend? Real people? Go to -newspapers- not INTERNET MESSAGE BOARDS ABOUT MMA, to spread scandalous shit. Maybe it is because you got turned down for having nothing to back up your claims? Or even nothing to offer any reasonable newspaper?

If not, go find a newpaper. Publish your damn testimonials. Sherdog is not the place and frankly, I think that any reasonable person would say you're a liar on these points.

Says the keyboard warrior.

I've posted my fucking address here. I DARE you to do the same.

Keep my name...

Out your mouth...

Donkey!

 

[rnaviaux]

I've read Battlefield Earth.

It wasn't very good and was stupidly long.

I've always liked long stories (The Stand comes to mind) and rather enjoyed Battlefield Earth. I can't decide if I like Final Blackout (a short novel) or BE more as far as Ron's science fiction work is concerned.

 

[rnaviaux]

@DSD:

While you criticize Anonymous for their titular practices, TS has posted some post protest rally YouTube videos entirely sans mask (assuming he even bothered to wear one at the protest), not to mention he has already posted his address in this thread. With both an image of his supposed face and his supposed address, you can verify whether or not he is hiding behind Sherdog, the internet, whatever way it is you think he is hiding, should you wish. Move is yours on that one honestly.

I believe TS has already stated that Sherdog is one of the first groups of people to which he has confessed his experience and that finding the courage to do so is quite embarrassing. He is spreading his message in the way and at the rate that he feels is best. Earlier in the thread he mentioned several times that he wishes to eventually write a book, perhaps the reason why he has not yet fed his story to the newspapers?

Ultimately it's up to you whether or not you believe him, but what would it take to do so?

Couple points here - what do you mean by "titular practices"?

I'm reasonable certain that Will was a Scientologist. (Or at least considered himself one.) I've seen internet postings before by people pretending to be Scientologists and can usually spot a fake. At least I think I can

 

[rnaviaux]

Scientology is insane- they expect people to believe all kinds of crazy, unrealistic shit just because someone in authority tells them to take it on faith.

So, how is this different than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, and the rest?

Not sure where your getting your information from but no one in authority is telling me or expecting me to believe anything. I study Mr. Hubbard's works and make up my own mind as to what I "believe" or not.

 

[Denter]

Not sure where your getting your information from but no one in authority is telling me or expecting me to believe anything. I study Mr. Hubbard's works and make up my own mind as to what I "believe" or not.

Noticed your location is Utah. How to scientologists get along with Mormons there?

 

[rnaviaux]

Noticed your location is Utah. How to scientologists get along with Mormons there?

You should ask my wife as she is LDS

Almost all my neighbors are LDS as well as friends, coworkers, acquaintances, etc.

I haven't had any problems. Well in the last ten years I think there have been two negative comments. I'm thinking that makes it a pretty rare occasion. And since those were idiots making the rude remarks I guess we can ignore them.

On the flip side I have been called a "dry" Mormon. (Means not baptized.) That's pretty much a compliment. But then I follow a lot of the tenets of their religion so it is hardly surprising.

If I were to ever hear of a Scientologist in my area being rude in any way to someone because of their membership in another faith then...well it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[greentuna]

Couple points here - what do you mean by "titular practices"?

I'm reasonable certain that Will was a Scientologist. (Or at least considered himself one.) I've seen internet postings before by people pretending to be Scientologists and can usually spot a fake. At least I think I can

Maybe I might be misusing the word, but what I mean is that the organization Anonymous practices anonymity, which is true to their name.

 

[rnaviaux]

Maybe I might be misusing the word, but what I mean is that the organization Anonymous practices anonymity, which is true to their name.

Ahh - got it. That makes sense.

 

[Denter]

You should ask my wife as she is LDS

Almost all my neighbors are LDS as well as friends, coworkers, acquaintances, etc.

I haven't had any problems. Well in the last ten years I think there have been two negative comments. I'm thinking that makes it a pretty rare occasion. And since those were idiots making the rude remarks I guess we can ignore them.

On the flip side I have been called a "dry" Mormon. (Means not baptized.) That's pretty much a compliment. But then I follow a lot of the tenets of their religion so it is hardly surprising.

If I were to ever hear of a Scientologist in my area being rude in any way to someone because of their membership in another faith then...well it wouldn't be pretty.

I assume that means no alcohol/coffee.

That plus I assume there might be aggressive preaching, etc.

I couldnt live in that state.

 

[rnaviaux]

I assume that means no alcohol/coffee.

That plus I assume there might be aggressive preaching, etc.

I couldnt live in that state.

Well I don't curse in public, I try to be polite to others, follow the golden rule, etc.

I've never experienced "aggressive preaching" so am not sure what that's like.

I've lived in a few different parts of the country. This is hands down the friendliest neighborhood I've ever lived in. (L.A. was the worst!)

I wouldn't want to raise my kids anywhere else.

And there is a real bonus to living here I like to tell people. With so many kids in our neighborhood there are always teenagers to babysit or do yard work. I haven't had to mow my lawn in 9 years!

We all watch out for each other. If the economy really takes a dive I could think of far worse places to be living.

I don't drink, do drugs or drink coffee already but that isn't a big issue as one might think.

Before moving here I would have never dreamed of living in Utah. Now that I've been here for ten years I hope I never have to move away.

 

[doyawanna]

I don't doubt that a man can fool one rather easily on a message board. His act doesn't show signs that it is not merely just that, an act, by being well written or convincing. Any decent lie would be such, and I think his associations lend one to belief that it is a lie.

I have actually read some of these articles. There are abuses in the CoS, certainly. Or rather - people let themselves listen to garbage by certain cultishly minded people. If your interaction with scientology begins and ends with Dinaetics, or any other reasoable way of approaching the beliefs of L. Ron Hubbard, I am sure that they would not have as big of a problem. One has to question whether these people are not simply weak minded slaves. Who listens to people who make you run everywhere?

Moreover, once again: If he wants to promote this stuff for real, why not the newspapers? They are surely eating this up.

I should like to note that I do respect the effort you're personally taking in reply to this. I can tell you're quite even headed about this. Thank you. HOwever, do tell me this:

Do you not think it is utterly destructive to associate onself with the scumbags on 4chan?

(1) I disagree with you about Will's legitimacy and honesty of posting. I understand that he is basically attacking your faith, so your reaction is totally understandable.

(2) My problem with the CoS, and the reason I think it's important to shine light on it, is twofold:

(a) The Church, directly under Hubbard's control and under his successors, has engaged in systemic abuse of power. Every neutral report and every ex-scientologist seems to support this fact. Are there good people in Scientology? Absolutely. Do many of them do good things? Yes. Is they "Church" structured in any way that makes this a priority? No. It is designed to help people "improve themselves" by taking courses at a high price, and holding a pseudo-mystical nirvana ideal as a carrot to keep advancing (and paying). In the end, it takes from people and gives nothing back (okay, to be fair, it gives back a sense of purpose, a community, and structure to people). The abbsurd lengths taken to keep senior ex-pats from talking is rather shocking, and tells most rational people that the whole thing is likely a shell game.

(b) My second issue is based on my background in engineering and pure sciences. I look at empirical evidence of results and there has been ZERO evidence that anything the CoS preaches has any truth to it. There is no evidence that even the "highest level" scientologist has any better mental stabilty, physical health, or ability to change their environment than any other person. None. Scientology simply promises something that it doesn't deliver, and asks that you pay a huge sum of money to get to hear these "secrets" that have no definable value other than the joy of reaching a goal. And yes, I know you know people who have been changed by Scientology... but anecdotal evidence always supports your beliefs, it's the way we are wired. This isn't a normal religion where faith is the goal - this is supposed to be science that has measurable effects, and it has NONE. If it did, then the CoS would be running huge stories in the newspapers you seem so gung-ho on.

So that's my personal problem with the "Church". Not the people, but the deep-rooted structural lie (and inherent corruption) that I see as the very foundation of the business. It's not a symptom of bad apples, it's the roots of the organization: get money from people, no matter how. Just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[rnaviaux]

(1) I disagree with you about Will's legitimacy and honesty of posting. I understand that he is basically attacking your faith, so your reaction is totally understandable.

(2) My problem with the CoS, and the reason I think it's important to shine light on it, is twofold:

(a) The Church, directly under Hubbard's control and under his successors, has engaged in systemic abuse of power. Every neutral report and every ex-scientologist seems to support this fact. Are there good people in Scientology? Absolutely. Do many of them do good things? Yes. Is they "Church" structured in any way that makes this a priority? No. It is designed to help people "improve themselves" by taking courses at a high price, and holding a pseudo-mystical nirvana ideal as a carrot to keep advancing (and paying). In the end, it takes from people and gives nothing back (okay, to be fair, it gives back a sense of purpose, a community, and structure to people). The abbsurd lengths taken to keep senior ex-pats from talking is rather shocking, and tells most rational people that the whole thing is likely a shell game.

(b) My second issue is based on my background in engineering and pure sciences. I look at empirical evidence of results and there has been ZERO evidence that anything the CoS preaches has any truth to it. There is no evidence that even the "highest level" scientologist has any better mental stabilty, physical health, or ability to change their environment than any other person. None. Scientology simply promises something that it doesn't deliver, and asks that you pay a huge sum of money to get to hear these "secrets" that have no definable value other than the joy of reaching a goal. And yes, I know you know people who have been changed by Scientology... but anecdotal evidence always supports your beliefs, it's the way we are wired. This isn't a normal religion where faith is the goal - this is supposed to be science that has measurable effects, and it has NONE. If it did, then the CoS would be running huge stories in the newspapers you seem so gung-ho on.

So that's my personal problem with the "Church". Not the people, but the deep-rooted structural lie (and inherent corruption) that I see as the very foundation of the business. It's not a symptom of bad apples, it's the roots of the organization: get money from people, no matter how. Just rubs me the wrong way.

I don't think he is attacking DSD's faith. He is attacking mine. (DSD isn't a Scientologist. I am.)

Slight correction: "Do many of them do good things? Yes. Is they "Church" structured in any way that makes this a priority? No."

I would disagree with this and say that it is a priority to do "good things". In fact it is thoroughly covered in many of our basic books and lectures. Since the church is working so hard to make these materials available to everyone and get them to study these materials then it seems to me that the church is making it a priority to do "good things."

Anyone is free to get a book, study it and apply some of the principles therein and see if the results are as claimed.

 

[Scruff Dog]

when it comes to anon, im curious why people feel like they have to blame the many for the actions of the few?

sure, a lot of sick shit churns through the chans. but trolls are the heart and soul of the internet... how many shertards are there compared to legit posters on sherdog?

trolls unintentionally serve a function, much like the much maligned speculators at the stock exchanges that everyone loves to hate: they find the absolute worst and make it known, and provide a natural firewall against the uninitiated.

as countless people here have said, theyve poked into the chans once or twice to see what its about, but couldnt stand to keep looking. mission accomplished, as most of the "serious business" anon is on about these days is not for general consumption.

ironically, they thrive off the kind of judgmental ignorance DSD is displaying which leads to them being constantly underestimated. the 4chan trolls keep them well insulated.

as for the masks, the pictures and video ive found of the protest show that will was there, he was unmasked, and one of the signs he had with him was referencing his now dead uncle. this would have to be some illuminati shit to be a scam.

other than will, most of the most outspoken protesters and ex-scion celebrities attend these functions without masks. there is no shortage of people willing to make themselves known for the sake of their advocacy.

with that being the case, why do the random supporters, the raw numbers, the masses if you will, need to be unmasked? they are there to support the unmasked ones typically but are of little relevance themselves other than spreading the word. is there some reason they should willingly expose themselves to "fair game" just to satisfy someones macho requirements?

anyway, i should probably can it as anon prefers to be misunderstood by any means necessary. its just hard for me to ignore blatant ignorance on any subject. i doubt anyone seriously believes the people putting time and effort into project chanology or anon: iran are the same people posting kiddie porn for laughs.

 

[rnaviaux]

This isn't a normal religion where faith is the goal.

First I have heard of this. I always thought salvation of the spirit or soul was the goal of many religions.

 

[doyawanna]

First I have heard of this. I always thought salvation of the spirit or soul was the goal of many religions.

I guess one and the same to me - you have to have faith in the god to have salvation. I was just pointing out that they are unquantifiable in nature.

 

[rnaviaux]

when it comes to anon, im curious why people feel like they have to blame the many for the actions of the few?

sure, a lot of sick shit churns through the chans. but trolls are the heart and soul of the internet... how many shertards are there compared to legit posters on sherdog?

trolls unintentionally serve a function, much like the much maligned speculators at the stock exchanges that everyone loves to hate: they find the absolute worst and make it known, and provide a natural firewall against the uninitiated.

as countless people here have said, theyve poked into the chans once or twice to see what its about, but couldnt stand to keep looking. mission accomplished, as most of the "serious business" anon is on about these days is not for general consumption.

ironically, they thrive off the kind of judgmental ignorance DSD is displaying which leads to them being constantly underestimated. the 4chan trolls keep them well insulated.

as for the masks, the pictures and video ive found of the protest show that will was there, he was unmasked, and one of the signs he had with him was referencing his now dead uncle. this would have to be some illuminati shit to be a scam.

other than will, most of the most outspoken protesters and ex-scion celebrities attend these functions without masks. there is no shortage of people willing to make themselves known for the sake of their advocacy.

with that being the case, why do the random supporters, the raw numbers, the masses if you will, need to be unmasked? they are there to support the unmasked ones typically but are of little relevance themselves other than spreading the word. is there some reason they should willingly expose themselves to "fair game" just to satisfy someones macho requirements?

anyway, i should probably can it as anon prefers to be misunderstood by any means necessary. its just hard for me to ignore blatant ignorance on any subject. i doubt anyone seriously believes the people putting time and effort into project chanology or anon: iran are the same people posting kiddie porn for laughs.

Fascinating post.

1. "why people feel like they have to blame the many for the actions of the few?" Is this something new? I doubt it.

2. " but trolls are the heart and soul of the internet" I've never heard this said before. Interesting opinion. Not sure what real function they serve as I don't really follow what your saying on this point.

3. "i doubt anyone seriously believes the people putting time and effort into project chanology or anon: iran are the same people posting kiddie porn for laughs." I haven't thought about it much one way or another. The little direct observation I have made of protesters is that they are rather rude. Of course this is based on phone calls received at my church a couple years back. In that respect there is nothing new to this. Before the net I observed this phenomena.

 

[doyawanna]

I don't think he is attacking DSD's faith. He is attacking mine. (DSD isn't a Scientologist. I am.)

Slight correction: "Do many of them do good things? Yes. Is they "Church" structured in any way that makes this a priority? No."

I would disagree with this and say that it is a priority to do "good things". In fact it is thoroughly covered in many of our basic books and lectures. Since the church is working so hard to make these materials available to everyone and get them to study these materials then it seems to me that the church is making it a priority to do "good things."

Anyone is free to get a book, study it and apply some of the principles therein and see if the results are as claimed.

I know were are destined to agree to disagree on this one :icon_chee

We tend to see the positives we bring to the table. If you are a person who sees value in the "doing good things" then you will pick up on that as a key piece of information in the religion. I was raised in a Christian household and while I would not consider myself a Christian I still see Christianity as having a central value of giving to and helping others. Many others don't see it that way. Similarly, you may see Scientology as having this as a central goal, but I don't. As an outsider who has read several of the texts, what I see is a not-too-subtle attempt to convince people they can be better - better than they are now, better than other people, better able to control their world. It looks to me like the "doing good things" is a side-effect of proving this process, but the central point is to better yourself. If this was the key goal, that might actually be laudable. But the fact that the "science" of scientology is hokum and that you have to pay the church at every step to keep getting access to the really good secrets makes it a scam in my book.

I won't convince you, and you probably won't convince me, but that is my perspective of the CoS.

 

[Scruff Dog]

also, bear in mind that the beef is with the institution and its practices.

im sure rnaviaux is a nice guy, means well, and is pretty harmless. anon isnt protesting *him* after all, and everyone acknowledges that people are free to whatever faith they choose. its an important distinction, if a cliche one.

 

[doyawanna]

I don't think he is attacking DSD's faith. He is attacking mine. (DSD isn't a Scientologist. I am.)

I think DSD may actually be a member as well. He is doing a much better job of following the official policy regarding ex-members:

(1) Deny they were ever a full member or had any access to the "real truth"
(2) Attack their personality, ideally accusing them of moral crimes like child pornography so they have no credibility
(3) Sue Sue Sue for libel, bankrupting them if possible

One and two already accomplished. The writ may well be on the way.

-----

It's sad but true, but this is well documented.

 

[rnaviaux]

also, bear in mind that the beef is with the institution and its practices.

im sure rnaviaux is a nice guy, means well, and is pretty harmless. anon isnt protesting *him* after all, and everyone acknowledges that people are free to whatever faith they choose. its an important distinction, if a cliche one.

Never been called harmless before. That's a new one.

Hard to keep track of what "anon" is protesting. They seem to change themes often.

I wish "they" would at least read a book or two so they knew what they were protesting.