I am an ex-Scientologist. (LONG read)

[Stangfriik]

That makes sense. Certainly better than simply being accused of being brainwashed. Sure wish I had some rich family though

So if you had such a family, you would invest more into your religion? I just don't understand how you can take a religion so seriously when they charge you for information that in other religions is freely available. Why is it that one must be financially affluent to attain such a level in your religion that other religions simply offer if you ask?

 

[rnaviaux]

So if you had such a family, you would invest more into your religion? I just don't understand how you can take a religion so seriously when they charge you for information that in other religions is freely available. Why is it that one must be financially affluent to attain such a level in your religion that other religions simply offer if you ask?

Sure would. Probably would donate tons more than I have.

I of course take my religion very seriously as I've been a member for over three decades now. I donate to my church for services and sometimes for no services at all. I guess to some it is a sign of "brainwashing". To me it's simply a matter of wanting to support my church and help it to flourish and prosper.

What I learn from studying the scriptures of Mr. Hubbard is of course different from other church's scriptures. So in that sense I don't think its the same thing.

However I should point out all the fundamental axioms, principles and a whole lot more is available online at the church's website. So I guess in that sense it is freely available.

Books do cost money and I like books so am happy to purchase them. I've also purchased books about other religions and philosophies so don't see how much different that is. (Of course one can always go to a library. Most churches have libraries the public can use as well. Plus I've been known to give books away to interested parties as well.)

If your referring to the tithing system in place for doing services at the church then that is a bit of apples an oranges scenario. Other churches don't offer all the same services we offer. Nor do they have similar personnel requirements to deliver said services, etc. In any case I am happy with the way this has been established.

Recent changes have occurred which provide a lot more introductory services for newcomers. Most of which are far more than I have seen in my experiences which traditional western churches. (Can't really comment upon eastern religions as I don't have much in the way of any personal experience with those.)

We of course do have the traditional Sunday service.

The LDS have a 10 % tithing system which seems to work for them. I sometimes wonder how that would work with our church but I like the way we have it set up.

There are services that are quite pricey by some standards. In my perspective I could donate a million times more than I have already to my church and come nowhere near the value of what I have gotten from my church. And that's just considering the first service I took back in the 70's. Everything since then has just been icing on the cake. I for sure have gotten the best bargain ever.

I've left a lot out of what I could say in reply to this but I'm running out of time.

 

[Gotti McCarran]

Sure would. Probably would donate tons more than I have.

I of course take my religion very seriously as I've been a member for over three decades now. I donate to my church for services and sometimes for no services at all. I guess to some it is a sign of "brainwashing". To me it's simply a matter of wanting to support my church and help it to flourish and prosper.

What I learn from studying the scriptures of Mr. Hubbard is of course different from other church's scriptures. So in that sense I don't think its the same thing.

However I should point out all the fundamental axioms, principles and a whole lot more is available online at the church's website. So I guess in that sense it is freely available.

Books do cost money and I like books so am happy to purchase them. I've also purchased books about other religions and philosophies so don't see how much different that is. (Of course one can always go to a library. Most churches have libraries the public can use as well. Plus I've been known to give books away to interested parties as well.)

If your referring to the tithing system in place for doing services at the church then that is a bit of apples an oranges scenario. Other churches don't offer all the same services we offer. Nor do they have similar personnel requirements to deliver said services, etc. In any case I am happy with the way this has been established.

Recent changes have occurred which provide a lot more introductory services for newcomers. Most of which are far more than I have seen in my experiences which traditional western churches. (Can't really comment upon eastern religions as I don't have much in the way of any personal experience with those.)

We of course do have the traditional Sunday service.

The LDS have a 10 % tithing system which seems to work for them. I sometimes wonder how that would work with our church but I like the way we have it set up.

There are services that are quite pricey by some standards. In my perspective I could donate a million times more than I have already to my church and come nowhere near the value of what I have gotten from my church. And that's just considering the first service I took back in the 70's. Everything since then has just been icing on the cake. I for sure have gotten the best bargain ever.

I've left a lot out of what I could say in reply to this but I'm running out of time.

You are going to have a fantastic time here. What are some of your favorite MMA fighters anyway?

 

[rnaviaux]

You are going to have a fantastic time here. What are some of your favorite MMA fighters anyway?

lol! No doubt. I'm more of a bjj fan and not so much into MMA. Lost interest after it became MMA. Back in the first few UFC's it was interesting to see what happened when it was style vs. style. After Royce left I stopped watching.

I guess my favorite fighter nowadays is Roger Gracie. Why do you ask? (Seems a bit off topic.)

 

[Gotti McCarran]

Yeah Roger Gracie is pretty damn good. I asked, because I was wondering whether you watched MMA at all or just came here to defend your do you call it religion?

 

[Stangfriik]

Why is it that there is so many claiming that such enlightenment is prohibited yet you freely engage in such practices? If your answer is that they are simply ignorant, then why in your opinion would such passionate disbelief in the true intent of your religion exist? Why is there such secrecy in your religion that many believe have purely a financial interest in controlling their subjects yet you seem to contradict most of their claims?

 

[rnaviaux]

Yeah Roger Gracie is pretty damn good. I asked, because I was wondering whether you watched MMA at all or just came here to defend your do you call it religion?

Yep - I do call it a religion.

Used to watch the local fights on tv all the time. But that was more to see how the guys from my club were doing. It got old after a while plus family life makes it tough to follow. But really I just don't have much interest in it anymore. I like training but that's about it. My competition days are just about over as well; family, injuries etc.

I don't bother trying to defend my religion on or off-line. Sometimes I like to chime in with a different perspective if I'm bored but really, what's the point? Who is going to change their mind based on an internet conversation? I haven't seen it happen too often.

I do find it amusing how often it is that someone has established their opinion on my "brainwashedness" based on what the have "researched" on the net and yet don't know anything about my religion. Not too surprising considering the nature of the net.

 

[Gotti McCarran]

Yep - I do call it a religion.

Used to watch the local fights on tv all the time. But that was more to see how the guys from my club were doing. It got old after a while plus family life makes it tough to follow. But really I just don't have much interest in it anymore. I like training but that's about it. My competition days are just about over as well; family, injuries etc.

I don't bother trying to defend my religion on or off-line. Sometimes I like to chime in with a different perspective if I'm bored but really, what's the point? Who is going to change their mind based on an internet conversation? I haven't seen it happen too often.

I do find it amusing how often it is that someone has established their opinion on my "brainwashedness" based on what the have "researched" on the net and yet don't know anything about my religion. Not too surprising considering the nature of the net.

Yeah I feel you on the internet thing. I'm quite shocked that you would actually make some sense, but you do.

I don't like Scientology. I'm German and they treat Scientology like a dangerous sect here, so that's how we regard that over here. That's also how I see it. I think the major religions aren't far from that either, but I see them doing good a lot especially for older people as well.

From Will's posts Scientology looks like slave labor for real. the kind of stuff he brings in here will make anybody mad at Scientology. I guess there can ideally be different experiences, like you seem to hang out with all kinds of non scientologists and you seem to be alright. You seem to be doing alright as well. Of course you could be a made up persona, but whatever. You're not an agressive loud mouthed punk, so I can appreciate that.

Would be cool to see you and Will chat it up a little too see what comes out. That would probably be a pretty cool debate, but since that's not your interest anyway, I guess I have to live with you guys having not much of an interaction. I like you, but I got my money on Will or better points about Scientology. I think you may have gotten super lucky for one reason or another, but I am much more inclined to believe Will's general assessment over yours. It's much more spot on for most of Scintology's members from what I've seen anyway. Some of you guys are very weird to me and just get that psycho vibe from them. That's not to say you are lying. I really don't know what your life experience is like and how you are as a person, but I personally think you may be cool despite of Scientology rather than because of it. Tough to tell what the deal is here since none of us really know you, but thanks for sharing your thoughts. It seemed truthful and normal enough for me for now.

Cheers, have fun on the forums.

 

[rnaviaux]

Why is it that there is so many claiming that such enlightenment is prohibited yet you freely engage in such practices? If your answer is that they are simply ignorant, then why in your opinion would such passionate disbelief in the true intent of your religion exist? Why is there such secrecy in your religion that many believe have purely a financial interest in controlling their subjects yet you seem to contradict most of their claims?

Lots of questions and lots of nuances in those questions.. (Gotta hit the road soon as the wife is grilling a steak for me.)

Short answer is I certainly can't be expected to know every one's motivations as they could be distinctly different. Not to mention how the definition of "rationalization" fits in. Some are ignorant no doubt. But I don't think that really fits the bill so to speak.

The net certainly shows a different side to peoples natures that I find in face to face conversation. People are far more vicious on the net than irl. Methinks the net has helped strip aware the veneer of sociability that exists amongst us in day to day life. But again that doesn't really answer the question ans is more of an incidental opinion/observation of my own.

Your first question starts off with "so many" which is subject to some discussion in and of itself. How many is "so many"? Ten, a hundred, a thousand? Who are these "many". Are some of them passing on what the heard? Or opinions they formed themselves after a fair and honest look at my religion. (Which one would think would including studying some basic texts on the subject.) But then their is a conundrum - if the were able to look into and find out what is was about then doesn't that mean its not so secretive?

Don't get me wrong however. Achieving "enlightenment" can take a lot of work. So some may come and look and leave after a short while (or a long while) and say "There is nothing there. Look I studied all about it and now have the expert opinion that its all bunk." Understandable to me. If they got nothing out of it then it is worthless to them. Others come and do achieve things they never thought possible and think its the most valuable thing ever. And I do mean "ever."

The term "cult" of course has a sense of being secretive. So its a burden to be labeled with that pejorative. At least we aren't being burned at the stake. The funny thing is how hard we work to make so much of the works of L. Ron Hubbard available for anyone. Its actually a bit of a problem as there is so much material (scriptures as we call it) to study and learn.

If one was a fast reader one could knock out the bible in a few days. (Skipping all the "he begats" as that just gets repetitive.) Just learning the basics of our religion will take a bit longer.

(There are a few Scientology books that are consider beginning books one could read in a few hours though.)

Steaks a waiting - gotta go....

 

[rnaviaux]

Yeah I feel you on the internet thing. I'm quite shocked that you would actually make some sense, but you do.

I don't like Scientology. I'm German and they treat Scientology like a dangerous sect here, so that's how we regard that over here. That's also how I see it. I think the major religions aren't far from that either, but I see them doing good a lot especially for older people as well.

From Will's posts Scientology looks like slave labor for real. the kind of stuff he brings in here will make anybody mad at Scientology. I guess there can ideally be different experiences, like you seem to hang out with all kinds of non scientologists and you seem to be alright. You seem to be doing alright as well. Of course you could be a made up persona, but whatever. You're not an agressive loud mouthed punk, so I can appreciate that.

Would be cool to see you and Will chat it up a little too see what comes out. That would probably be a pretty cool debate, but since that's not your interest anyway, I guess I have to live with you guys having not much of an interaction. I like you, but I got my money on Will or better points about Scientology. I think you may have gotten super lucky for one reason or another, but I am much more inclined to believe Will's general assessment over yours. It's much more spot on for most of Scintology's members from what I've seen anyway. Some of you guys are very weird to me and just get that psycho vibe from them. That's not to say you are lying. I really don't know what your life experience is like and how you are as a person, but I personally think you may be cool despite of Scientology rather than because of it. Tough to tell what the deal is here since none of us really know you, but thanks for sharing your thoughts. It seemed truthful and normal enough for me for now.

Cheers, have fun on the forums.

Thanks - will try

 

[Danostases**]

ok rnaviaux, because you're being nice I'll give you my only personal experience with scientology.

ABout five years ago after getting very interesting in the UFO field I caught wind of scientology and to be honest, I found it very interesting and appealing to me. Being in Vancouver at the time I had noticed the "church" on Hasting street. I sent them an email asking them about how I could get to know what scientology is all about and maybe how I could get involved.

I received an email littered with costs costs and more costs of how I could "learn" more. I didn't become insulting, or hostile at all. I simply ask them why do I need to pay to be a member of your church? It's kind of embarrassing for me to admit this because the last thing I'd do is join that church, but at the time, I was a little younger and more confused and I was curious. I got an email back talking about how scientology hasn't been around for thousands of years like other churchs, and need support from it's members. This at a first glance seems reasonable to me, but then I think to myself, well most people that need help from a church don't have anything to give, at least not at first. That's besides the point though.

So I emailed the church back telling them that I'm suspicious of their motivations if I can't be involved unless I pay, which I think was around 200 for a start. I was a little aggressive about my personal opinion on the matter, but I wasn't insulting or threatening in any way.

The response I received blew me out of my chair. I was shocked. I got a hostile and threatening letter from the what I now consider to be a cult. It didn't make a lot of sense even, the only sentence I really remember that was clear was "we affective ways of dealing with people like you". The six months after that my car had been broken into 3 times. The one time I caught one of the fuckers I was with my grandmother. He got away though. Nothing was ever missing just my information had been gone through. My first thought was identity theft, this turned out to be not the case.

My garbage had been gone through, and so on. After reading this entire thread, in hindsight, I'm convinced I was "fair gamed."

Any thought's? By the way I've done the necessary investigation into the probabilities of what many of the things could have been. The church really seems to be my only suspect left. 2 of the instances of my car being broken into must have been the result of being followed.

 

[rnaviaux]

ok rnaviaux, because you're being nice I'll give you my only personal experience with scientology.

ABout five years ago after getting very interesting in the UFO field I caught wind of scientology and to be honest, I found it very interesting and appealing to me. Being in Vancouver at the time I had noticed the "church" on Hasting street. I sent them an email asking them about how I could get to know what scientology is all about and maybe how I could get involved.

I received an email littered with costs costs and more costs of how I could "learn" more. I didn't become insulting, or hostile at all. I simply ask them why do I need to pay to be a member of your church? It's kind of embarrassing for me to admit this because the last thing I'd do is join that church, but at the time, I was a little younger and more confused and I was curious. I got an email back talking about how scientology hasn't been around for thousands of years like other churchs, and need support from it's members. This at a first glance seems reasonable to me, but then I think to myself, well most people that need help from a church don't have anything to give, at least not at first. That's besides the point though.

So I emailed the church back telling them that I'm suspicious of their motivations if I can't be involved unless I pay, which I think was around 200 for a start. I was a little aggressive about my personal opinion on the matter, but I wasn't insulting or threatening in any way.

The response I received blew me out of my chair. I was shocked. I got a hostile and threatening letter from the what I now consider to be a cult. It didn't make a lot of sense even, the only sentence I really remember that was clear was "we affective ways of dealing with people like you". The six months after that my car had been broken into 3 times. The one time I caught one of the fuckers I was with my grandmother. He got away though. Nothing was ever missing just my information had been gone through. My first thought was identity theft, this turned out to be not the case.

My garbage had been gone through, and so on. After reading this entire thread, in hindsight, I'm convinced I was "fair gamed."

Any thought's? By the way I've done the necessary investigation into the probabilities of what many of the things could have been. The church really seems to be my only suspect left. 2 of the instances of my car being broken into must have been the result of being followed.

Sounds pretty weird! Did you save the emails?

 

[willhaven720]

Some people like scientology.

Randy likes scientology.

It would appear that he likes it so much so that he feels the goals of scientology ("clearing the planet"), justify the means of a coward cult (OSA and fair game).

What I don't understand is why Randy feels he has to support the current leadership of the church, when it is obviously being run into the ground by a tyrant.

It's why Randy doesn't hear anything anymore about making every CoS "Saint Hill Size". Which is a term that is used to describe a sort of mega-church, giving specific quotas on the number of staff, amount of income, number of people coming in for service, books being sold, etc.

Now what Randy hears about is called an "Ideal Org". Which means a really nice building with no people in it. It's a place where many scientologists avoid like the plague, as they know full well just how many sales pitches they will have to endure otherwise.

It's bad enough they have to deal with the constant calls at home, not to mention visits to their house and work. It's the same pitch usually. Buy more books. Join staff. Let your child join the Sea Org. Give us money.

I think if Randy really gave a fuck about scientology and it's goal to get everyone in the world into it, I think he'd probably start to take a serious look at the "Free Zone" (independent scientology organizations).

But I don't think Randy actually gives a fuck about scientology. I think he cares about looking like a good scientologist. Someone that other scientologists will look up to.

The CoS prides themselves on making members like Randy because that's who pays the bills. You want to talk about the ultimate brainwashing?? When someones ego is spoon-fed with the idea that they are a "hero" and a part of the "most ethical group on the planet" and the "only hope mankind has of survival"... Those are some really tough ideas to get out of your head.

After a while, these are the only guys left in the room. Like my step dad. Well... them and the children they spawn to continue the scam. I am living proof of this. So are my sisters. And my cousins. And the kids I went to school with. And all the kids in the Sea Org.

I really wish Randy gave a fuck. He really does seem like a nice dude.

It's a shame.

 

[Ruprecht]

I think if Randy really gave a fuck about scientology and it's goal to get everyone in the world into it, I think he'd probably start to take a serious look at the "Free Zone" (independent scientology organizations).

They exist? How independent are they really?
I would have thought Scientology would have litigated them into the ground...

 

[Darwinist]

They exist? How independent are they really?
I would have thought Scientology would have litigated them into the ground...

They do exist, and yes they are under a ton of pressure from the CoS.

Unfortunately, the oppression and general fuckwittery of Scientology is built right into the material. Free Zoners use the same material Hubbard wrote that the CoS does, they believe the same things(the whole "what are your crimes" etc, etc.) If the CoS somehow went away and the Free Zoners were left to their own devices, they would soon become the CoS 2.0. They don't object to the entire gamut of mind-controlling techniques and pseudoscientific practices of the CoS, far from it. They employ them themselves, just not in as organized a fashion.

 

[rnaviaux]

Why is it that there is so many claiming that such enlightenment is prohibited yet you freely engage in such practices? If your answer is that they are simply ignorant, then why in your opinion would such passionate disbelief in the true intent of your religion exist? Why is there such secrecy in your religion that many believe have purely a financial interest in controlling their subjects yet you seem to contradict most of their claims?

Just to follow up on this from yesterday. I'm not going to concern myself with figuring out why various individuals on the net (some known and some unknown) hold the opinions they do. That would be pure speculation.

I will comment upon the few individuals irl that I have had the occasion to run across that were opposed to me and my church. I think I can count on two hands the individuals I have had face to face conversations which were less than civil in regards to my religion. However hundreds of people that I have talked to have been fairly receptive and curious with none of the hostility that one runs across on the net.

Basically, I have found three things to be the cause of the hostility I have dealt with in real life:

1. Just plain ignorance and stupidity. Well I shouldn't say "plain" ignorance, rather I should say "mean spirited" ignorance. this dates back to my child hood though. Kids can say some pretty mean things when faced with things they don't understand and know nothing about. Personally for me this is no big deal but it was saddening at times.

My real concern now is what my children will have to deal with as they get older.

2. Money. I've had a few people get pissed off at me when they thought my actions were taking money out of their pockets. Understandable as money is such a charged up topic for anyone. Just talk to any married couple or business owner or taxpayer and this will become abundantly clear.

I've had the occasion to help out an individual or two here or there with some rather simple Scientology procedures that resolved decades old problems for the individuals in question. Then the individuals in question stopped going to their therapist! Oh boy! Now I have a therapist all pissed at me. (Just for the record if I know someone is seeing a therapist I I don't work with them. These were the odd occasions when I didn't know.)

What was the therapist really pissed about? Simple - they lost a patient or two that had been paying them for years, sometimes decades. I guess I be pissed too if I were in their shoes.

It didn't help that the previous patients were pissed that they had spent money for years trying to resolve issues that were resolvable for a lot less time and money. Oh well.

3. Crimes. This is an interesting one. (Also the most derision is leveled at this one it seems.) Scientology contains various doctrines on the subject of honesty, dishonesty and what happens to an individual when he/she goes down the "wrong" road.

Speaking just from personal experience the few times I've had people blast me and my religion it has always turned out they were doing some rather dishonest things. It's happened enough times to be noteworthy.

(Of course this is skipping the times when someone was mad at me for something stupid I did!)

I find this area of Scientology to not only be extremely fascinating but also very useful for every day life. In it lies a fundamental key to better interpersonal relationships in all areas of life. There is a flip side to it however...it also applies to me as well. When I have done something not exactly kosher then the ramifications of doing something like that can affect me as well. I don't know anyone who is immune to this.

There is a bit of info at

Integrity And Honesty, How can Scientology help me...

and

Family; Marriage; Divorce?, How can Scientology help me...

which gives some basic applications of this material. There are a lot more writings and lectures on the subject however.

So some people I have dealt with have simply had things they were hiding. Funny because I could care or less what kind of past an individual has had.

There are other factors that could answer the questions posed above as well such as the idea that some people instinctively fight against any improvement or betterment activity but I've run into that type even less than the situations I laid out above.

This is at least my point of view on the subject and shouldn't be construed as some official point of view. You can get that from the church website and materials on the subject.

 

[Danostases**]

I've had the occasion to help out an individual or two here or there with some rather simple Scientology procedures that resolved decades old problems for the individuals in question. Then the individuals in question stopped going to their therapist! Oh boy! Now I have a therapist all pissed at me. (Just for the record if I know someone is seeing a therapist I I don't work with them. These were the odd occasions when I didn't know.)

What was the therapist really pissed about? Simple - they lost a patient or two that had been paying them for years, sometimes decades. I guess I be pissed too if I were in their shoes.

I'd bet my bank account that these people were paying way less to their therapists than they were to scientology. Some people are just messed up and it wouldn't be difficult to convince a person that therapy isn't working so you should try my techniques. Sounds to me like you were taking advantage of some people in weakened psychological states. So what do you do, break into therapy offices and steal their lists, then make phone calls?

3. Crimes. This is an interesting one. (Also the most derision is leveled at this one it seems.) Scientology contains various doctrines on the subject of honesty, dishonesty and what happens to an individual when he/she goes down the "wrong" road.

Many institutions have this very same set of social mechanisms.

 

[rnaviaux]

I'd bet my bank account that these people were paying way less to their therapists than they were to scientology. Some people are just messed up and it wouldn't be difficult to convince a person that therapy isn't working so you should try my techniques. Sounds to me like you were taking advantage of some people in weakened psychological states. So what do you do, break into therapy offices and steal their lists, then make phone calls?

You really have some interesting opinions. (I hate to bust peoples preconceived ideas as I really don't find it to be all that productive.) But you did ask...

Since these people in question payed exactly zilch to me and Scientology and had payed significant amounts to therapists I'm wondering how much is in your bank account.

lol @ the idea of breaking into a therapists office. (I don't think you read my posts on the subject.) I have a rule of not working with people that are working with therapists. Plus I rarely charge anyone to help them.

Whats amusing is I have had people insist that I help them that I declined to. So your characterization of me "taking advantage of someone in their weakened psychological states" is at best misleading and certainly downright rude.

So which books have you read? (I think you said you read parts of Dianetics. What did you think about the first principle mentioned therein?)

Did you save any of those emails you mentioned?

 

[rnaviaux]

Many institutions have this very same set of social mechanisms.

No doubt that many religions cover this ground.

 

[willhaven720]

Government urges councils to stop giving tax breaks to Scientology | World news | The Guardian