Hydrogen - what do you guys think?

Have a mate in consulting, his firm has been hired by big oil to investigate hydrogen feasibility.

From what he has said they are banking on it being the new form of energy in the future. Something like fuel cell tech that is interchangeable??

Having a beer with him this week end over Easter I will ask more as he is on the front line with all this shit.
 
chardog said:
pumped hydro, super simple and safe barring an act of god super natural disaster.

pump water into reservoir uphill, release water downhill into generators when you need the power. Water is the energy storage.
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Yeah, it really does make you wonder why people fall for this type of crap, like there isn't numerous amounts of ways to store energy safely and cheaply, it only becomes an issue when you need these systems scaled down and mobile, like in a car.

If your talking about land based systems without space constraints, it's really not a problem.
 
While serving on Submarines in the US Navy the Nuclear RX wasn't in the top 10 things that could kill you in that confined space. The two that I was most frightened of both produced Hydrogen: the battery during charging (emergency power source) and the Oxygen generator. The O2 generator operates by ELECTROLYSIS, which separates the O2 from water and leaves the hydrogen as a byproduct. The machine was highly pressurized, used lots of electrical current, and intentionally produced two highly combustible gasses. It was affectionately called "the bomb". Luckly, it rarely worked at all.
Another consideration is that the water that goes into such a machine has to be filtered and purified to a large degree (uses time, money, and energy) because introducing all the salt and other countless contaminants into your expensive (and sensitive) machine will quickly render it useless.
Of course, technical advancements and innovation could address these issues, but it seems like a steep hill to climb to get to a net gain on energy production.
 
jeff7b9 said:
Nothing in life is free. Always a tradeoff.

The more potent energy source, at least in everything I have seen, will also require a more stringent grasp of physics and the more advanced technology to support it.

We haven't even slightly approached the limits of what we could do with nuclear power. High risk, monumental reward, BUT... not maybe monumental profit

As to the OP request to keep politics out of it, that is noble and I support the notion of an honest debate of physical characteristics ... but like it or not we are bound in a world governed by money and politics and the suppression of technologies which threaten the bottom line of profitable industry is a VERY real thing.
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This reminds me of something as simple as cellular phones. Stop buying the same shit for way too much money. It's normal for ppl to buy a new phone for usually 1k usd, just because. Feeding the cunts, and not realizing how much it effects more than, it's my money I'll buy whatever I want. Same goes for all things that should be treated as precious resources, that again I hear all the time, it's mine I'll do whatever I want. Nothing is "yours". Maybe not even your consciousness etc. Quite wasteful and self absorbed. No true sense of community. But at the same time, human perception is quite limited.
 
CHUTE_BOXE78 said:
This reminds me of something as simple as cellular phones. Stop buying the same shit for way too much money. It's normal for ppl to buy a new phone for usually 1k usd, just because. Feeding the cunts, and not realizing how much it effects more than, it's my money I'll buy whatever I want. Same goes for all things that should be treated as precious resources, that again I hear all the time, it's mine I'll do whatever I want. Nothing is "yours". Maybe not even your consciousness etc. Quite wasteful and self absorbed. No true sense of community. But at the same time, human perception is quite limited.
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It's by design.

Much easier to keep folks docile and under control if they are mesmerized by the shiny thing and aren't thinking too much.
 
William Huggins said:
Yeah, it really does make you wonder why people fall for this type of crap, like there isn't numerous amounts of ways to store energy safely and cheaply, it only becomes an issue when you need these systems scaled down and mobile, like in a car.

If your talking about land based systems without space constraints, it's really not a problem.
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it's because the element can be flexible, it can produce electric or straight combustion, and the output is water. That is enough of a "sell" to a lot of folks. If you create the vehicle, you dont really care how the fuel is created, and you can try to push that problem to someone else.... and the details are not looked at. Hydro cars are complex, they cost a lot and perform poorly, it's a tough sell, hence the adaptation is dead.
 
jeff7b9 said:
It's by design.

Much easier to keep folks docile and under control if they are mesmerized by the shiny thing and aren't thinking too much.
Click to expand...
I suppose the sad part of all this, is I learned and understood the problem since I was like 6. Magicians in a way. World leaders swapped religions for wealth/power etc. Going to church school made me question everything, and hate all religious shit. I think I've said this on here before, but the final straw was my friend committing suicide after years of sex abuse from the priest at our church. I knew something was odd when they pulled our Irish priest to bring in some other guy from Mexico or south America. Worst part was no one believed the kid except me. His parents beat the shit out of him and his little brother for complaining about it all the time. I could hear them screaming from down the block. His parents got their nice house through the church. No wonder many ppl enjoy animals better than humans.
 
CHUTE_BOXE78 said:
I suppose the sad part of all this, is I learned and understood the problem since I was like 6. Magicians in a way. World leaders swapped religions for wealth/power etc. Going to church school made me question everything, and hate all religious shit. I think I've said this on here before, but the final straw was my friend committing suicide after years of sex abuse from the priest at our church. I knew something was odd when they pulled our Irish priest to bring in some other guy from Mexico or south America. Worst part was no one believed the kid except me. His parents beat the shit out of him and his little brother for complaining about it all the time. I could hear them screaming from down the block. His parents got their nice house through the church. No wonder many ppl enjoy animals better than humans.
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Sorry to hear that, damn.

Yeah, I also caught on pretty young that this world isn't what it is masquerading as. It fucks with me that so many people DON'T see it because I couldn't unsee it if I wanted to.

Try not to let it get the better of you.
Life is pretty amazing, even if it is a rigged game.
 
chardog said:
pumped hydro, super simple and safe barring an act of god super natural disaster.

pump water into reservoir uphill, release water downhill into generators when you need the power. Water is the energy storage.
Click to expand...

This assumes you have a nice handy place in the hills to build a reservoir along with a source of water. Most of the good sites have already been taken, and you still run into the problem of scale. Largest pumped hydro project in the world is about 24GWh storage and 3GW generating capacity, which doesn't even come close to keeping the lights on in my city.

KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
Ok so in your view, stationary storage is the biggest challenge?
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Everything associated with hydrogen is a pain in the ass. Any kind of storage is going to be far more difficult & expensive than natural gas, same thing with transporting it around. Producing it also takes a ton of energy so combined with the storage & transportation issues and it's always going to be really expensive and a PITA to work with. IMO hydrogen is just stupid unless we have so much nuclear power that it's too cheap to meter, save it for stuff like rocket fuel where it really does make a difference.

Fun fact I worked out on the back of a napkin a while back. If we magically turned every car in the US into a hydrogen powered vehicle, it would take almost twice as much energy to keep them running compared to using gasoline. You'd have to burn twice as much fuel in the power plants to generate the electricity for making & distributing hydrogen compared to simply burning the fuel in the car engine. Unless you're in France or BC where almost all the electricity comes from nuclear or hydropower, you'll end up polluting MORE if you tried to run the transportation system on hydrogen.
 
aerius said:
This assumes you have a nice handy place in the hills to build a reservoir along with a source of water. Most of the good sites have already been taken, and you still run into the problem of scale. Largest pumped hydro project in the world is about 24GWh storage and 3GW generating capacity, which doesn't even come close to keeping the lights on in my city.



Everything associated with hydrogen is a pain in the ass. Any kind of storage is going to be far more difficult & expensive than natural gas, same thing with transporting it around. Producing it also takes a ton of energy so combined with the storage & transportation issues and it's always going to be really expensive and a PITA to work with. IMO hydrogen is just stupid unless we have so much nuclear power that it's too cheap to meter, save it for stuff like rocket fuel where it really does make a difference.

Fun fact I worked out on the back of a napkin a while back. If we magically turned every car in the US into a hydrogen powered vehicle, it would take almost twice as much energy to keep them running compared to using gasoline. You'd have to burn twice as much fuel in the power plants to generate the electricity for making & distributing hydrogen compared to simply burning the fuel in the car engine. Unless you're in France or BC where almost all the electricity comes from nuclear or hydropower, you'll end up polluting MORE if you tried to run the transportation system on hydrogen.
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it's not the only solution, sure. You can use batteries, even gasoline.
 
I'm predicting it will be a big thing but only really in Italy. Does anyone want to invest in my new hydrogen power company for the Italian market? It's called Hydrogenitalia.
 
aerius said:
This assumes you have a nice handy place in the hills to build a reservoir along with a source of water. Most of the good sites have already been taken, and you still run into the problem of scale. Largest pumped hydro project in the world is about 24GWh storage and 3GW generating capacity, which doesn't even come close to keeping the lights on in my city.



Everything associated with hydrogen is a pain in the ass. Any kind of storage is going to be far more difficult & expensive than natural gas, same thing with transporting it around. Producing it also takes a ton of energy so combined with the storage & transportation issues and it's always going to be really expensive and a PITA to work with. IMO hydrogen is just stupid unless we have so much nuclear power that it's too cheap to meter, save it for stuff like rocket fuel where it really does make a difference.

Fun fact I worked out on the back of a napkin a while back. If we magically turned every car in the US into a hydrogen powered vehicle, it would take almost twice as much energy to keep them running compared to using gasoline. You'd have to burn twice as much fuel in the power plants to generate the electricity for making & distributing hydrogen compared to simply burning the fuel in the car engine. Unless you're in France or BC where almost all the electricity comes from nuclear or hydropower, you'll end up polluting MORE if you tried to run the transportation system on hydrogen.
Click to expand...
I think obviously we are talking about green hydrogen here.
 
KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
Could you expand upon why you think local hydrogen production for vehicles could be more adequate than electric?
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The production of lithium batteries is actually not all that clean an operation. Specifically the mining of lithium and the global logistics of transporting these raw materials. Then when the battery is is kicked you still have this big box of chemicals welded into the body of a vehicle you have to figure out how to dispose of. In many cases that means disposing of the entire vehicle even if it would otherwise have a usable life. Then you still have the input of electricity to charge the batteries.

If we went with hydrogen we would have to scale up local production and compression facilities. But once that's done your inputs are electricity and water, both of which you have and can produce cleanly locally. Charging batteries will use less electricity but I still think electricity plus water is easier than electricity plus lithium. Since it's being produced locally it can be made "just in time" and scaled to market conditions relatively easily, and since it won't be in the bottle long you won't lose the same volume you would in long distance transportation or long-term storage.

A compressed gas tank is inexpensive to manufacture can be swapped out for another tank of approximately equal value in seconds. They take the empty tank they give you a full tank and you're back on the road. The exhaust is warm air and moisture, and when a compressed tank has reached the end of its serviceable life it's as simple as recycling scrap steel to dispose of it.

TLDR: The raw materials are simpler, cleaner, more abundant, and cheaper. Refueling is faster. End of life/recycling is much simpler, quicker, cleaner, and cheaper.
 
KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
I think obviously we are talking about green hydrogen here.
Click to expand...

In which case it would take around 500 nuclear generating plants to supply all the electricity needed to make the hydrogen that's required for running the US vehicle fleet. The US currently has about 55 nuke plants.
 
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