HWs throughout history with elite P4P skills?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by stuff jones, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. stuff jones Brown Belt

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    The HW division is less skilled then the other divisions. I'm not exactly sure why that is. Maybe because there's few big guys, you don't have to develop skills when you're young because you can dominate just by being bigger and punching harder? Or maybe because at that size, differences in punching power and chin are more significant than for smaller weight classes?

    In any case, I see very few HWs who are as skilled as say good WWs.

    Who are some HWs who if shrunk to WWs would still be ATG fighters?

    I've got Ali and Holmes.
     
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  2. Ultra O’Dia Brown Belt

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    Big guys always get the shit end when it comes to this stuff.

    Gymnasts are all small because moving your body is easier when there is less of it.

    We always give the lighter guys the ‘if he had the size he would be way better because he would hit harder” treatment, but we never give the big guys the “think of how good he would move if he was 100lbs lighter” treatment.

    Wilder moves incredibly well for his height. Fury boxes beautifully and has great footwork while being a giant. Lewis and both Klitchkos had good technique and stamina for huge men (vitali being less technical but super athletic)

    Tyson was ridiculously fast for anyone, but especially at 215lbs.

    Bowe actually moved well early on.

    Holmes and young Ali, for sure. Liston.
     
  3. stuff jones Brown Belt

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    Moving and skills aren't the same.

    Some big guys are relatively athletic. Very few have the toolkit of skills that would compete with an elite smaller guy.

    Edit: By skills I mean footwork, timing, punch selection, punch variety, head movement, feints, infighting tricks and probably some other stuff I'm missing.
     
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  4. deucesarewild Blue Belt

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    Big guys always get a built-in advantage.

    Everyone has, historically, tuned in for heavyweights more thsn any other weight class.

    The bigger the HW is the harser it is to see a superb boxing style. Tyson Fury is a weird exception, but he has PED allegations over the years and--despite his record--he can be unpredictable.

    The argument is always this: a good big guy beats a good little guy.

    People are always waiting for the HW division to come alive. Nobody is waiting for the BW division to come alive.

    Wilder moves fucking awful for a HW champion. Credit to him for always asking for VADA testing and for wanting big fights--I will never fault him for that, but he is MAYBE an average mover. He crosses his feet all the time, and has no defensive footwork. Nobosy should ever say WilDer moves well. He could be a thousand feet tall and his footwork would still suck.

    The following would make good WW's if shurnk doen from HW:

    Dempsey (specifically 1917-1919)
    Tunney (had similarities to Benny Leonard)
    Louis (specifically from Schmeling II to Billy Conn)
    Marciano (52 to 55)
    Ali (63 to 67)
    Frazier (68 to 71)
    Tyson (85 to 88)
    Holyfield had his moments.

    This doesn't mean they would reign as undisputes WW's, but that they would do better than thr other HW's.
     
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  5. KAZSoliloquy Look at the state of his face

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    the mildly overrated but undeniably effective archie moore comes to mind
     
  6. TheGreatA Silver Belt

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    The guys who were essentially light heavyweights like Ezzard Charles or Archie Moore, for sure.

    Jersey Joe Walcott was pretty damn skilled, even though he lost quite a bit. He seemed to have it all, power, speed, quick reflexes, crafty techniques. However, he succumbed to poor decision-making and a vulnerable chin at times.

    I think his craftsmanship would actually be more effective against fighters who couldn't just one-punch him like Rocky and Louis did.

     
  7. toogreen Yellow Belt

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    Larry Holmes, that jab would be effective any weight class
     
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  8. cocksure Silver Belt

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    Larry could be the best of all?
     
  9. stuff jones Brown Belt

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    Evander is up there.
     
  10. Zain654 White Belt

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    Evander and joe Louis
     
  11. nac386 Gold Belt

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    Tyson clearly had p4p skills. Evander, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, also come to mind.
     
  12. aries Silver Belt

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    Ali, Tyson, and Louis. I'm almost tempted to put Fury in there (but not on resume), because his movement and fleetness of foot would have translated well to any weight and he'd only be faster if he was smaller.
     
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  13. djacobox372 Gold Belt

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    If you're judging based on pure boxing skill/technique, Larry may be the best HW of all time.
     
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  14. Shoemaker ****BOILERPLATE**** Platinum Member

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    Not that he would've been an ATG anyway, but David Haye would be just as good if you shrunk him down.
     
  15. Shoemaker ****BOILERPLATE**** Platinum Member

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    This gives me a fun idea for a thread. Shrink Frazier down and have him fight the Four Kings in their era.
     
  16. aries Silver Belt

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    Yeah I was thinking David Haye, he was unstoppable at CW.
     
  17. Absolut Red Belt

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    No love for Chris Byrd
     
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  18. danny23 Black Belt

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  19. Doug Money Green Belt

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    The thread should be full of cruiser weights that went up to hw. I got Ali of course, Holmes, Tyson who was very skilled early on, Fury, Hollyfield, Haye, recently Usyk, Michael Moore, Tommy Morrison rip.
     
  20. Prefect Brown Belt

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    Ali struggled against anyone smaller and quick. He had over 20 lbs on Cooper and had to chest to get out of there. Most are hw that were undersized at hw. P4P is hard to pin down because it usually involves a boxer way out of their weight class.

    My list:

    Joe Louis
    Mike Tyson
    Michael Spinks
    Michael Moore
    Roy Jones Jr
    Floyd Patterson
    James Toney
    Chris Bryd
    Joe Frazier
    Holmes

    Wilder would be a ridiculous cruiserweight if he ever skipped a meal. Wilder really is a cruiserweight that hits harder than any present hw.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020 at 7:01 PM

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