HW GOAT?

[Bacco]

 

[Deleted member 584792]

Brock lesnar !!! (joking of course not)

i agree about fedor to be honest finding a modern goat is difficult there is a lot of good hw i think we can debate about stipe as hw goat at a moment

 

[Deleted member 504083]

Stop it, please. This Cain myth needs to end. And yes, Werdum beat a prime Cain, let's not start bending the truth here. Werdum beat a fairly prime Fedor, but Nog was over the hill by that point.

He was not the best mma wrestler at HW, Cormier among others were that. He was certainly not the best grappler as there are many who were better. And he didn't even have the best cardio. Guys like Cormier, Barnett, Big Nog, Fedor had just as good if not better in some cases.

Again. it's all speculation. And that means nothing when determining who the best was. You go by actual accomplishments.

Prime Cain coming off multiple injuries and surgeries, a long layoff, not acclimated to New Mexico high altitude like Werdum did, and two fights before the end of his career means he wasn't in his prime.

Nobody other than DC had as good of MMA wrestling at HW as Cain. Curtis Blaydes wasn't even able to take down JDS's corpse being something like 0-8 on takedown attempts.

Nobody else's cardio comes close to Cain with the amount of pressure he puts out on his opponents for 5 rounds.

Being UFC champ, beating one of the all time great HW's in their prime like JDS two times, prime Lesnar, TRT Bigfoot x2 (who dominated "fairly" prime Fedor), prime Kongo (beat prime Cro Cop), past prime Big Nog, and Rothwell doesn't equate to "speculation".

 

[mjfan23]

Unique thought TS. Answer is Fedor

 

[mjfan23]

Prime Cain coming off multiple injuries and surgeries, a long layoff, not acclimated to New Mexico high altitude like Werdum did, and two fights before the end of his career means he wasn't in his prime.

Nobody other than DC had as good of MMA wrestling at HW than Cain. Wasn't Curtis Blaydes, as he was unable to take down JDS's corpse being something like 0-8 on takedown attempts.

Nobody else's cardio comes close to Cain with the amount of pressure he puts out on his opponents for 5 rounds.

Beating one of the all time great HW's in their prime like JDS two times, Lesnar, TRT bigfoot x2 (who dominated Fedor), prime Kongo (beat Cro Cop), Rothwell, past prime Big Nog doesn't equate to speculation.

Interesting. How many career wins does Cain have? How many ufc title and defenses? More than Timmeh at least I hope.

 

[Deleted member 504083]

Interesting. How many career wins does Cain have? How many ufc title and defenses? More than Timmeh at least I hope.

 

[JKS]

Prime Cain coming off multiple injuries and surgeries, a long layoff, not acclimated to New Mexico high altitude like Werdum did, and two fights before the end of his career means he wasn't in his prime.

Nobody other than DC had as good of MMA wrestling at HW as Cain. Curtis Blaydes wasn't even able to take down JDS's corpse being something like 0-8 on takedown attempts.

Nobody else's cardio comes close to Cain with the amount of pressure he puts out on his opponents for 5 rounds.

Being UFC champ, beating one of the all time great HW's in their prime like JDS two times, prime Lesnar, TRT Bigfoot x2 (who dominated "fairly" prime Fedor), prime Kongo (beat prime Cro Cop), past prime Big Nog, and Rothwell doesn't equate to "speculation".

AH yes the Sea Level Cain excuses. Are you gonna tell me that Chuck started losing cause he lost "that look in his eye" or BJ just wasn't "motivated".

Reality is that many fighters go through injuries and surgeries. Cain is not the exception where he can ride that out.

Actually, many fighters had great wrestling at HW. DC as mentioned I am not gonna get into too much of this as it will open up a whole different discussion. But even someone like Randy Couture had great wrestling for a HW.

The whole Cain cardio thing is a myth. The only two fights where he went 25 was vs JDS, and that was a fight where he dictated the pace vs a fighter that didn't offer too much in return. And even in those fights he was tired beyond round 3. What happened vs Werdum? Where the opponent returned the offense?? Not to say Cain didn't have great cardio for HW, he really did. But it wasn't beyond the other HWs who are know for cardio. I've seen guys like Josh Barmett and Cormier put on just as much pressure and output and have more left in the tank.

Again, you got 6-7 wins there you name and two losses. His time was just too short buddy. It wasn't really that impressive of a run to even come close to talking best HW of all time.

 

[Taric]

How about Curtis Blaydes and Rozenstruick? And he fought one of the best versions of Overeem. Everyone he beat were top contenders, except for Cain. Cain is the only win that really doesn’t do much to his legacy.

He didn’t beat Stipe in their 2nd fight because Stipe got old, but because how much Francis evolved. You must be blind not see that.

And your concept of prime is absolutely wrong as well. The idea that you are your absolutely best at the very beginning of your career and then it goes down hill from there is stupid. Why train at all? It’s impossible to improve, right?

Look at Blachowicz- 38 years old, 36 pro fights and 14 years as a pro. Best he’s ever been.

Charles Oliviera- 31 years old, 40 pro fights and 13 years as a pro. Best he’s ever been.

Glover- 41 years old, 39 pro fights, 19 years as a pro. Fights for the title next.

Lewis- 36 y.o., 33 pro fights, 11 years pro.
Best he’s ever been.

Masvidal- 36 y.o., 50 pro fights, 18 years pro. Just fought for the title.

Patricio Pitbull- 33 y.o., 36 pro fights, 17 years pro. Possibly the best FW in the world.

A could go on and on with examples like these. Those aren’t exceptions, those are the rule. Fighters aren’t in their best form at 25 with 10 pro fights and 4 years in the game as Sherdog wants to believe so badly. All that “9+ years as a pro”, “30+ pro fights” and “32 is past prime” bullshit that is floating around Sherdog is statistically wrong and just an excuse why Pride fighters flopped outside of Japan.

You can fight low level opponents forever and not really feel the repercussions of it like you do when you fight elite competition for a long time. Travis Fulton is the prime example of this. Fulton would not have been able to survive 300 fights in the UFC, his body would have fallen apart long before then. You take vastly more damage fighting elite fighters which deteriorates your body significantly quicker, that's just how real life works. The NFL operates the same way. Running backs retire 10 years younger than quarterbacks do because of the hits they take despite both playing the same sport.

All of the greatest MMA fighters, every single one of them, either faded or retired around the 10 year mark of fighting elite competition. GSP, Anderson, Fedor, Aldo, whoever. Jones is at the 10 year mark now and there's talk of him retiring too.

Fighters have a clear and obvious shelf life when fighting competitive competition and it's easy to understand why. The fact you're trying to dismiss the concept is absurd. It has nothing to do with PRIDE, this is how it is in all sports.

 

[GOATtalks]

You can fight low level opponents forever and not really feel the repercussions of it like you do when you fight elite competition for a long time. Travis Fulton is the prime example of this. Fulton would not have been able to survive 300 fights in the UFC, his body would have fallen apart long before then. You take vastly more damage fighting elite fighters which deteriorates your body significantly quicker, that's just how real life works. The NFL operates the same way. Running backs retire 10 years younger than quarterbacks do because of the hits they take despite both playing the same sport.

All of the greatest MMA fighters, every single one of them, either faded or retired around the 10 year mark of fighting elite competition. GSP, Anderson, Fedor, Aldo, whoever. Jones is at the 10 year mark now and there's talk of him retiring too.

Fighters have a clear and obvious shelf life when fighting competitive competition and it's easy to understand why. The fact you're trying to dismiss the concept is absurd. It has nothing to do with PRIDE, this is how it is in all sports.

Are you retarded? What low level competition are you talking about?

Jan- 7 years in UFC, KSW champ before that. Fought Izzy, Reyes, Corey Anderson x2, Jacare, Rockhold, Santos, Krylov, Manuwa, Cannonier, Gustafson, Latifi, Sokoudju x2.

Oliviera- 11 years in UFC (28 UFC fights lol), fought Chandler, Tony, Kevin Lee, Holloway, Pettis, Felder, Frankie, Cub, Cerrone, Lamas, Will Brooks, Stephens, Jury, Jim Miller x2, Guida. He has fought literally everyone.

The same goes with Glover, Masvidal, Lewis, Pitbull etc.

Bringing Travis Fulton is ludicrous and has nothing to do with this discussion. Poor choice of bringing NFL as well, which is dominated by a 43 year old Tom Brady.

I’ve never denied ageing or cumulative damage fighters have from competing. What I do say it’s wrong and stupid to dismiss a fighter just based on their age or number of fights. It’s a myth created here on Sherdog that everyone is at their best in their 20’s and I have debunked this with stats many times. And no fighters don’t have a clear shelf life. Their careers aren’t straight lines. They can improve, stay the same or get worse multiple times and at different times in their careers. Athleticism isn’t everything. Look at Johnny Walker. He was young and the mist athletic LHW entering UFC. He failed, because of lack of experience, skill and fight IQ. Things you improve with time. Look at Francis. Only after those 2 loses he closed the holes in his game and became a champion. At 34 by the way.

 

[Taric]

Are you retarded? What low level competition are you talking about?

Jan- 7 years in UFC, KSW champ before that. Fought Izzy, Reyes, Corey Anderson x2, Jacare, Rockhold, Santos, Krylov, Manuwa, Cannonier, Gustafson, Latifi, Sokoudju x2.

Oliviera- 11 years in UFC (28 UFC fights lol), fought Chandler, Tony, Kevin Lee, Holloway, Pettis, Felder, Frankie, Cub, Cerrone, Lamas, Will Brooks, Stephens, Jury, Jim Miller x2, Guida. He has fought literally everyone.

The same goes with Glover, Masvidal, Lewis, Pitbull etc.

Bringing Travis Fulton is ludicrous and has nothing to do with this discussion. Poor choice of bringing NFL as well, which is dominated by a 43 year old Tom Brady.

I’ve never denied ageing or cumulative damage fighters have from competing. What I do say it’s wrong and stupid to dismiss a fighter just based on their age or number of fights. It’s a myth created here on Sherdog that everyone is at their best in their 20’s and I have debunked this with stats many times. And no fighters don’t have a clear shelf life. Their careers aren’t straight lines. They can improve, stay the same or get worse multiple times and at different times in their careers. Athleticism isn’t everything. Look at Johnny Walker. He was young and the mist athletic LHW entering UFC. He failed, because of lack of experience, skill and fight IQ. Things you improve with time. Look at Francis. Only after those 2 loses he closed the holes in his game and became a champion. At 34 by the way.

Uh, you reiterated my point. I just finished saying that fighters can only last fighting elite competition for around 10 years before they either fall off a cliff or retire completely, and you just listed a bunch of fighters that have fought elite competition for around 10 years or less lol

Francis Ngannou has been fighting real competition for 5/6 years, that's where his shelf life began. That's the mileage on his body.

Poor choice of bringing NFL as well, which is dominated by a 43 year old Tom Brady.

Running backs retire 10 years younger than quarterbacks do because of the hits they take despite both playing the same sport.

... Do you read what you quote at all? You once again reiterated my point lol. Running backs are required to retire 10-15 years younger than quarterbacks because of the mileage on the body. They play the exact same sport but have vastly different shelf lives. MMA is the same except it's the the competition level. You can fight 500 times until you're 50 years old as long as you're fighting lower level competition. The hits aren't as powerful.

 

[Texan6533]

Fedor had some good competition in Stipe, but I think Stipe fell just short. Clear #2 to Fedor. Had he beaten Francis and then Jones I think we would have had a new #1.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Dumbest post ever...


What about during the 10 years before this fight? Did Fedor do anything noteworthy?

Or was this his debut?


In other words, you are a donkey.

3 top 3 wins in 10 years is not a lot (zero finishes). Francis already has that amount of top 3 wins and he finished them all.

 

[Deleted member 504083]

AH yes the Sea Level Cain excuses. Are you gonna tell me that Chuck started losing cause he lost "that look in his eye" or BJ just wasn't "motivated".

Reality is that many fighters go through injuries and surgeries. Cain is not the exception where he can ride that out.

Again, you got 6-7 wins there you name and two losses. His time was just too short buddy. It wasn't really that impressive of a run to even come close to talking best HW of all time.

Lol how many legit wins does Fedor have? What makes you believe Fedor was past his prime when he had three consecutive losses to Werdum, Bigfoot and Hendo, when you actually believe Cain was in his prime against Werdum?

Caught up on two losses by Cain, when Fedor, in his prime had 3 consecutive losses to Werdum, Bigfoot (who Cain destroyed x2), and Middleweight Hendo. Fedor's best wins are Cro Cop and Nog, who between them, their best wins in the UFC were big Timmeh and a 220 lb LHW sized Couture. Prime Big Nog got destroyed by Mir (many fighters go through injuries and surgeries. Big Nog is not the exception where he can ride that out), prime Cro Cop destroyed by Gonzaga and Kongo, yet you scoff at people ranking Cain over Fedor!

Here are legit wins for each, not including LHW Randleman, 40 year old LHW Coleman, and LHW Arona (who in no way lost to Fedor):

Fedor:
Big Nog x2
Cro Cop
Hunt
Herring
Sylivia
Arlovski

Cain:
JDS x2
Lesnar
Kongo (beat prime Cro Cop)
TRT Bigfoot (mauled prime Fedor)
Big Nog
Rothwell
Browne

If you don't believe Fedor gets ragdolled and beaten with brutal ground and pound by Cain, I don't know what to tell you. Fedor can only beat Cain by a Hail Mary punchers chance, or an even less likely Hail Mary sub off his back. This would be a worse beating than Fedor took from Bigfoot Silva.

 

[JKS]

Lol how many legit wins does Fedor have? What makes you believe Fedor was past his prime when he had three consecutive losses to Werdum, Bigfoot and Hendo, when you actually believe Cain was in his prime against Werdum?

Caught up on two losses by Cain, when Fedor, in his prime had 3 consecutive losses to Werdum, Bigfoot (who Cain destroyed x2), and Middleweight Hendo. Fedor's best wins are Cro Cop and Nog, who between them, their best wins in the UFC were big Timmeh and a 220 lb LHW sized Couture. Prime Big Nog got destroyed by Mir (many fighters go through injuries and surgeries. Big Nog is not the exception where he can ride that out), prime Cro Cop destroyed by Gonzaga and Kongo, yet you scoff at people ranking Cain over Fedor!

Here are legit wins for each, not including LHW Randleman, 40 year old LHW Coleman, and LHW Arona (who in no way lost to Fedor):

Fedor:
Big Nog x2
Cro Cop
Hunt
Herring
Sylivia
Arlovski

Cain:
JDS x2
Lesnar
Kongo (beat prime Cro Cop)
TRT Bigfoot (mauled prime Fedor)
Big Nog
Rothwell
Browne

If you don't believe Fedor gets ragdolled and beaten with brutal ground and pound by Cain, I don't know what to tell you. Fedor can only beat Cain by a Hail Mary punchers chance, or an even less likely Hail Mary sub off his back. This would be a worse beating than Fedor took from Bigfoot Silva.

See, I actually said and always believed that Fedor was in his prime when he went on a 3 fight losing streak in Strikeforce, I do believe I mentioned that earlier in my conversation with you.

Facts are that a legacy of being unbeaten for 10 years and going 30-1-NC is far more impressive than a legacy of 8-2 over a span of 6 years. I love how you spin things around to suit your argument like calling Coleman and Randleman LHWs lol, because they dropped down later in their careers? Facts are they were HWs at the time of the fight, Coleman in 2004 was 230+ dummy. Also, listing only certain wins for Fedor but all for Cain to make him look better. I think you gotta add a few more wins to Fedor's list there buddy boy....

Shilt (top 10 HW for many years)
Herring (top 5 HW at the time)
Rogers (ranked top 10 at the time)
Fujita (ranked top 10 at the time)
Sobral (top 10 ranked HW)
Coleman
Randleman

So you can go ahead and add those 7 extra wins for Fedor. If you're gonna list Kongo, Rothwell and Browne for Cain, you may as well list those guys for Fedor.

No one is talking about who would win here. Nice way to try and spin the debate here lol. We're comparing legacies and their resumes to gauge greatest HW ever. You can go along with your little fantasy about Cain GNP Fedor all you want.....irrelevant to the topic. I personally think that missile of a right hand knocks Cain senseless, that bobble head sloppy defense wont do him wonders vs a accurate power puncher like Fedor. Cain would maybe last two minuets before he'd have little dancing men with sombreros dancing around his head while he's waking up.

Let me ask you. How does it feel having a pretty much unanimous verdict on Fedor being HW goat even 10 years later?? And no one really paying attention to your Cain campaign? Gotta suck, no?

 

[Deleted member 504083]

You seem really shook with the name calling, and feeling the need to add guys like Rodgers, Fujita and a one dimensional 40 year old LHW sized Coleman, LHW Randleman, LHW Sobral and Shilt. You really believe beating those guys and other cans in a corrupt Japanese MMA circuit, which may or may not have been fixed fights, makes Fedor so much more accomplished than Cain.

See, I actually said and always believed that Fedor was in his prime when he went on a 3 fight losing streak in Strikeforce, I do believe I mentioned that earlier in my conversation with you.

You stated "fairly prime Fedor". Not prime Fedor.

I love how you spin things around to suit your argument like calling Coleman and Randleman LHWs lol, because they dropped down later in their careers? Facts are they were HWs at the time of the fight, Coleman in 2004 was 230+ dummy.

And Vitor Belfort was HW champ. He could've been a legit HW contender in the modern era too, I guess. Weight doesn't equate to size. If Conor McGregor bulked up to 185 lbs, does that make him the same size as Usman? Of course not. It's fake size.

No one is talking about who would win here. Nice way to try and spin the debate here lol. We're comparing legacies and their resumes to gauge greatest HW ever.

Actually who would likely win head to head is a big part of how I personally view the GOAT. Resume is part of it, but I only compared the legit wins for each because it was said that Cain is all "speculation", which is false considering he had many legit wins, and by dominating performance. Was also the UFC champion.

Let me ask you. How does it feel having a pretty much unanimous verdict on Fedor being HW goat even 10 years later?? And no one really paying attention to your Cain campaign? Gotta suck, no?

Maybe you need to look up the definition of "campaign". Replying to a topic with my top 5 HW GOATs, then replying to you replying to me is simply stating my beliefs on an MMA forum like everyone else.

 

[Баса́ев]

1. Fedor
2. Stipe
3. Big Nog
4. Werdum
5. Cain

Pretty easy to rank honestly, and Ngannou isn't too far away from cracking that list

 

[DayV]

Lol how many legit wins does Fedor have? What makes you believe Fedor was past his prime when he had three consecutive losses to Werdum, Bigfoot and Hendo, when you actually believe Cain was in his prime against Werdum?

Caught up on two losses by Cain, when Fedor, in his prime had 3 consecutive losses to Werdum, Bigfoot (who Cain destroyed x2), and Middleweight Hendo. Fedor's best wins are Cro Cop and Nog, who between them, their best wins in the UFC were big Timmeh and a 220 lb LHW sized Couture. Prime Big Nog got destroyed by Mir (many fighters go through injuries and surgeries. Big Nog is not the exception where he can ride that out), prime Cro Cop destroyed by Gonzaga and Kongo, yet you scoff at people ranking Cain over Fedor!

Here are legit wins for each, not including LHW Randleman, 40 year old LHW Coleman, and LHW Arona (who in no way lost to Fedor):

Fedor:
Big Nog x2
Cro Cop
Hunt
Herring
Sylivia
Arlovski

Cain:
JDS x2
Lesnar
Kongo (beat prime Cro Cop)
TRT Bigfoot (mauled prime Fedor)
Big Nog
Rothwell
Browne

If you don't believe Fedor gets ragdolled and beaten with brutal ground and pound by Cain, I don't know what to tell you. Fedor can only beat Cain by a Hail Mary punchers chance, or an even less likely Hail Mary sub off his back. This would be a worse beating than Fedor took from Bigfoot Silva.

Fedor has 20 legit wins, Cain has 9 legit wins. And that's it.
Stop shortening Fedor's list in fake attempt to try to make a false equation, because Cain did not fight in his career, and he is lacking wins and resume.

Coleman, Randleman, T. Koshaka were equally greats of previous generation at those times same as old Arlovski, Cain, JDS in recent... getting beaten by next generation of fighters like Blaydes, Ngannou, Rozrnstruik in recent times. 2018-19 Cain is the same thing as 2004-2005 Coleman, only in different time.

Oagwa was Top 15 then, same as Daukas or somebody else now.
Fujita, Sobral, Schilt were equally Top 10 then, as Brownes and Rozenstruiks at recent times.

If Rozenstruik can be Top 5 with wins vs old Arlovski, JDS, Overeem in recent times, why would not Fujita be then with wins vs Kerr, Shamrock, Yvel, Nijman.

Cain failed to do the the most basic thing that fighter should do, and that is to fight. He could have lost to B, C level fighters if he was forced to fight often and to change different MMA rules. He is good when he can rest and study & prepaire for opponent for a year and push people to wire fence, if he is forced to fight 5 times per year, he is nowhere that good and looses to B level fresher and hungrier fighters.

With his 17 fights in career Cain does not deserve to be in front of Fedor, Nog, Cro Cop, Barnett who were a lot more and better tested as fighters in their careers.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Prime Cain coming off multiple injuries and surgeries, a long layoff, not acclimated to New Mexico high altitude like Werdum did, and two fights before the end of his career means he wasn't in his prime.

Nobody other than DC had as good of MMA wrestling at HW as Cain. Curtis Blaydes wasn't even able to take down JDS's corpse being something like 0-8 on takedown attempts.

Nobody else's cardio comes close to Cain with the amount of pressure he puts out on his opponents for 5 rounds.

Being UFC champ, beating one of the all time great HW's in their prime like JDS two times, prime Lesnar, TRT Bigfoot x2 (who dominated "fairly" prime Fedor), prime Kongo (beat prime Cro Cop), past prime Big Nog, and Rothwell doesn't equate to "speculation".

I can see the case although I think as well you look back and Cain did show a weakness to walking into good straight counter before this fight. I think his aggression was especially well suited to fighting JDS who had very little in the way of counters or defence when backed up.

Really I don't think Cain was that great a defencive striker at all, powerful on offence definately but I don't see him going on a decade long undefeated run even if injuries arent a problem.

 

[corrupted]

Fedor.

 

[surrealworlds]

It's Fedor. Here's why I think so:
He went 30-1-1 over a 9 year period facing some of the best at the time.
Just glancing through his wiki gives you (Spiral,Herring,Nog, Fajita, Good ridge, Coleman, Randleman, Coleman, Hunt, Sylvia, and Arlovski) were there cans in there too? Sure but no HW before or since has hung at the top consistently for such a long period.
If your looking at whole careers your adding Jeff Monsoon, Pedro Rizzo, Frank Mir and Chael Sonnen to that list.
Overall record of 36-6-1 with multiple championships.

Let's look at the other potential HW GOATs for comparison:
Stipe Miocic- biggest claim to fame imo is winning the UFC title twice and defending 4 times(total)/3 times consecutively.
He also has some serious names on his record of 20-4:
Cornier, Ngannou,Does Santos, Overeem,Werdum, Arlovski, Hunt, Maldonado, Gonzaga, Nelson.
Honestly I can't hate on anyone that think Stipe is GOAT, he's up there.

I don't think anyone else has a claim. Ngannou might one day but not yet. He's 16-3 over an 8 yr period and only maybe 8 or 9 of those wins are big names. Though he has some amazing KOs. Let him get a few defenses before we put him in the GOAT discussion. (As a sidenote, Ngannou has a win by Kimura!?)