How would Vitor Belfort have done against Igor Vovchanchyn?

[mkt]

My point isn't that his victory over Wanderlei doesn't count, it's that it doesn't indicate he had the skill to beat Wanderlei if the blitz gambit failed. Which means it also doesn't show us he had the skill to beat Igor because I don't think anyone thinks Igor was going to get blitzed.

And you most definitely can't use wins from a decade later to say young Vitor could beat top strikers.

The point is we have some evidence of Vitor beating good strikers at their own game. We have none for Igor. Arguing hypotheticals and counterfactuals doesn't change that.

 

[don't ask]

The point is we have some evidence of Vitor beating good strikers at their own game. We have none for Igor. Arguing hypotheticals and counterfactuals doesn't change that.

We have evidence young Vitor was great at an initial blitz. Outside of the Yvel decision a few years later, Vitor didn't beat top strikers until a decade passed..

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I'm taking Igor in 1998, he was more well rounded had arguably faster hands, was bigger and was mentally a lot stronger.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

styles make fights. Igor beat Sakuraba and Vitor didn't. that doesn't make their fights vs Sakuraba relevant at all to how they'd fight each other. Vitor is not going to fight Igor the way Telligman did. he's not going to bait Igor into getting left hooked by establishing a jab, he's not going to smother Igor in exchanges and take him down. he's going to try to blitz him, especially back in the day when they're saying the fight would happen. and blitzing Igor, especially early is not a smart move.

vitor is absolutely going to smother igor in exchanges, precisely by blitzing. igor had an average chin at best, getting dropped by a tra telligman jab in the first, which led to him getting controlled the rest of the 10 minutes. meanwhile, tra avoided all of igor's blistering offense. this is smack dab in the middle of igor's physical prime. he was 27. tra was 36.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

We have evidence young Vitor was great at an initial blitz. Outside of the Yvel decision a few years later, Vitor didn't beat top strikers until a decade passed..

he KO'd tra telligman who largely outstruck igor on the feet. igor was just swinging wildly at tra and got boxed up for the most part.

 

[don't ask]

he KO'd tra telligman who largely outstruck igor on the feet. igor was just swinging wildly at tra and got boxed up for the most part.

Yeah, but I thought we decided MMAth wasn't going to be used here. He blitzed Telligman, who explained in the post-fight interview he wasn't expecting a Brazilian to throw punches, and the Igor of a decade later had been training to fight Ken, not Tre. We don't know how Telligman would do if he survived the blitz because, again, Vitor didn't outstrike top strikers until later.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Yeah, but I thought we decided MMAth wasn't going to be used here. He blitzed Telligman, who explained in the post-fight interview he wasn't expecting a Brazilian to throw punches, and Igor had been training to fight Ken, not Tre. We don't know how Telligman would do if he survived the blitz because, again, Vitor didn't outstrike top strikers until later.

i mean watching the fight, it's obvious that tra was waiting for a takedown attempt. his stance was one of a "please don't take me down" kind. i'll give you that. but it's largely a moot point. vitor's hand speed at the weight class was basically never seen before in mma and never again since. he also had retarded power. igor's only chance is to swing wildly with his head down and hope he catches vitor. it's possible, of course, but we've seen lesser fighters beat igor to the punch.

we're assuming the absolute best physical and strategic version of both fighters show up in a fantasy matchup. i don't see how that favors igor over vitor.

 

[don't ask]

i mean watching the fight, it's obvious that tra was waiting for a takedown attempt. his stance was one of a "please don't take me down" kind. i'll give you that. but it's largely a moot point. vitor's hand speed at the weight class was basically never seen before in mma and never again since. he also had retarded power. igor's only chance is to swing wildly with his head down and hope he catches vitor. it's possible, of course, but we've seen lesser fighters beat igor to the punch.

we're assuming the absolute best physical and strategic version of both fighters show up in a fantasy matchup. i don't see how that favors igor over vitor.

We'll just have to disagree. I don't think we can conclude that young Vitor had the striking skills to beat top strikers if they survived the blitz and I don't think Igor would succumb to the blitz (or is outmatched as you describe).

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

vitor is absolutely going to smother igor in exchanges, precisely by blitzing. igor had an average chin at best, getting dropped by a tra telligman jab in the first, which led to him getting controlled the rest of the 10 minutes. meanwhile, tra avoided all of igor's blistering offense. this is smack dab in the middle of igor's physical prime. he was 27. tra was 36.

he's going to smother Igor's offense but not his own? Igor is shorter than he is. Igor had an average chin at best? he was eating bombs off Gary Goodridge and never went unconcious when Mark Coleman was on top of him raining an insane amount of knees onto his skull. in Vitor's prime he was getting absolutely bullied by old man Randy Couture. you're also not taking into account that Telligman was a short notice replacement for Shamrock. Vitor knew full well who and what kind of fight Couture brought and he still couldn't get it done.

the facts are Vitor is a glass cannon and a front runner, especially back in those days. if you don't melt to his 1st rd hurricane, he's the one who will melt. Sakuraba should've been an easy fight for Vitor because of all of his qualities but Vitor, for large parts of his career, was an underachiever and consistently shit the bed in fights. you can't say that about Igor.

 

[supermurph]

Vov had more heart. Vitor faded when he was the nail and not the hammer. Vitor had the sub game but preferred to fight like a wrestle boxer. And when put on his back, he kind of shut down. Vov fought like a wild animal off his back and always looked to sweep or get back up. Maybe Vitor catches him early, but I think the longer this fight goes on, Vov's gonna be on top of Vitor at some point and Vitor's getting TKO'd.

 

[Ibm]

1997 Vitor
View attachment 1046879

Mark Ruffalo by TKO

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

We'll just have to disagree. I don't think we can conclude that young Vitor had the striking skills to beat top strikers if they survived the blitz and I don't think Igor would succumb to the blitz (or is outmatched as you describe).

except igor wasn't a top striker. he was a highly ranked fighter with striking as his base but so was tank abbott. igor was a brawler, through and through.

he's going to smother Igor's offense but not his own? Igor is shorter than he is. Igor had an average chin at best? he was eating bombs off Gary Goodridge and never went unconcious when Mark Coleman was on top of him raining an insane amount of knees onto his skull. in Vitor's prime he was getting absolutely bullied by old man Randy Couture. you're also not taking into account that Telligman was a short notice replacement for Shamrock. Vitor knew full well who and what kind of fight Couture brought and he still couldn't get it done.

the facts are Vitor is a glass cannon and a front runner, especially back in those days. if you don't melt to his 1st rd hurricane, he's the one who will melt. Sakuraba should've been an easy fight for Vitor because of all of his qualities but Vitor, for large parts of his career, was an underachiever and consistently shit the bed in fights. you can't say that about Igor.

then it's not a fantasy matchup lol if you're making up a less than ideal version of young vitor (which could or could not be the case, the best version should be the assumption) then what's the point? young vitor had the strength and the grappling chops to knee igor into oblivion like coleman did.

in addition, igor absolutely shit the bed in multiple fights. lost to coleman, lost to cro cop, lost to rampage, lost to telligman, lost to sperry. he was favored in all of those except maybe cro cop. hell, he was favored against overeem and lost that too. you're making up a mythical fighter that never existed. vitor is proven.

 

[textwarrior]

They almost fought, if Belfort beat Overeem, the fight would have happened next.

Overeem was his kryptonite

 

[don't ask]

except igor wasn't a top striker. he was a highly ranked fighter with striking as his base but so was tank abbott. igor was a brawler, through and through.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply he was. I'm mixed up by who I'm responding to, I was trying to push back on the idea we had evidence young Vitor could beat top strikers in actual exchanges and not an immediate blitz.

 

[don't ask]

in addition, igor absolutely shit the bed in multiple fights. lost to coleman, lost to cro cop, lost to rampage, lost to telligman, lost to sperry. he was favored in all of those except maybe cro cop. hell, he was favored against overeem and lost that too. you're making up a mythical fighter that never existed. vitor is proven.

... uh, Randy, Sakuraba, Chuck, Randy again, Tito? That whole period where he was falling out of the sport and people thought he was done because of the tragedy with hi sister?

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

... uh, Randy, Sakuraba, Chuck, Randy again, Tito? That whole period where he was falling out of the sport and people thought he was done because of the tragedy with hi sister?

right. igor did fall out the sport though. at 32.

 

[don't ask]

right. igor did fall out the sport though. at 32.

I can't even follow your logic. He retired when his hands were too damaged from all the bareknuckle brawls and tournaments he was willing to fight in. That in no way reflects the point you're trying to make about him shitting the bed. And Belfort's poor performance for so long, along with criticisms about being mentally weak that have dogged him his entire career, suggest he's not above the criticism you're levelling at Igor.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

I can't even follow your logic. He retired when his hands were too damaged from all the bareknuckle brawls and tournaments he was willing to fight in. That in no way reflects the point you're trying to make about him shitting the bed. And Belfort's poor performance for so long, along with criticisms about being mentally weak that have dogged him his entire career, suggest he's not above the criticism you're levelling at Igor.

vitor competed in the same types of tournaments. didnt have as many fights as igor did under those rules but he competed in the same ruleset. didnt destroy his hands doing so. if anything thats a knock on igor.

 

[don't ask]

vitor competed in the same types of tournaments. didnt have as many fights as igor did under those rules but he competed in the same ruleset. didnt destroy his hands doing so. if anything thats a knock on igor.

You have no reason to think other fighters wouldn't have be retiring at 32 if they had done what Igor did. Holding that as a knock against Igor is ridiculous.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

You have no reason to think other fighters wouldn't have be retiring at 32 if they had done what Igor did. Holding that as a knock against Igor is ridiculous.

except a shitload of other fighters did, and didn't retire at 32. dan severn, ken shamrock, bas rutten, pele, patrick smith. hell, jorge patino had dozens of fights in bare knuckle vale tudo and is still fighting today. add them to probably 30-something others.