How we ruined grappling Sports

[jack36767]

I coached in north Kentucky, south Florida and costal NC and I grew up in
South Africa and Hawaii. I coached athletes to Win at folk style using freestyle moves, that's why I scored more points in the state championship than any other coach in the States history for my school.

I couldn't agree more with you on judo and I think it's interesting that you're willing to admit that CHANGING the rules are bad for the sport.

Why not just add a Greco-Roman division to Judo instead of removing all leg holding techniques?

So if not the figure 4 body lock what rule do you think I should be whining about?

Do you think the figure four is too dangerous for wrestling? Or is it all about stalling?

I think wrestling rules were perfectly fine in back in the 70ties and every change thats been made has been in a misguided attempt to make it more popular for television.

Which state did you set the record because my high school was one of those SW Ohio teams that always out scored the “elite” Northern Kentucky teams and wouldn’t be top 20 in big school ohio that year.

I also can categorically state that, (this should have already been established) that setting the scoring record in those states with subpar folk wrestling isn’t the brag to make.

Lol using the Judo thing as your example isn’t really the best one given the political stuff involved.

Actually separating the “techniques” between freestyle and folk is nonsensical in the extreme.

And way before rules you should worry about the other things that matter way more. You also ignore the other points I made because you don’t have a response

and again, the reason wrestling isn’t as popular as it could be and the reason the US struggled at the senio level are not the reasons you say they are. And that mentality is counterproductive

Additionally.. sigh. The coaching is so much better now and spread out. Of course it’s not like the 70s anymore

 

[EndlessCritic]

Try to mount your opponent and get upa'd? +1 advantage

Obtain a mounted triangle? Zero points or advantages.

Thanks IBJJF.

 

[-guerilla-]

Try to mount your opponent and get upa'd? +1 advantage

Obtain a mounted triangle? Zero points or advantages.

Thanks IBJJF.

GREAT POST!!!

That's exactly the kind of information I was hoping to build up in this thread awesome thanks!!!

 

[-guerilla-]

Which state did you set the record because my high school was one of those SW Ohio teams that always out scored the “elite” Northern Kentucky teams and wouldn’t be top 20 in big school ohio that year.

I also can categorically state that, (this should have already been established) that setting the scoring record in those states with subpar folk wrestling isn’t the brag to make.

Lol using the Judo thing as your example isn’t really the best one given the political stuff involved.

Actually separating the “techniques” between freestyle and folk is nonsensical in the extreme.

And way before rules you should worry about the other things that matter way more. You also ignore the other points I made because you don’t have a response

and again, the reason wrestling isn’t as popular as it could be and the reason the US struggled at the senio level are not the reasons you say they are. And that mentality is counterproductive

Additionally.. sigh. The coaching is so much better now and spread out. Of course it’s not like the 70s anymore

I broke records for my program at state every year. That's kentucky state championship. Participation in state and overall points in state. And I did it with a small intellectual school that couldn't produce an athlete to save its life because I was using freestyle techniques.

I have adressed every single one of your points with not only logic but photographic and video evidence.

Exactly which one of your points have I not addressed?.

don't bury it in a rambling paragraph just put one point up that I have not addressed

You're just a red white and blue Patriot that wants to stick up for your sport and I understand that.

I'm not the one separating these techniques into folkstyle and freestyle thats what the coaches, books and athletes say.

Judos recent rule fiddling is a perfect example of how we are ruining grappling sports with stupid rules that we keep changing...that's the whole thrust of this thread

The fact that they keep changing over complicated rules is the reason why nobody pays attention to wrestling in this country.

The vast majority of mixed martial arts champions in the United States are folkstyle wrestlers and to this day you can't find a single martial arts school that teaches folk style wrestling...do you understand the disconnect there?

Freestyle wrestlers are very rare in American MMA competition and when they do have an opportunity to compete they usually dominate...

Khabib 101

Once again American promoters are not scowering the globe for people that can Crush their American champions.

Look at the way they keep pushing Brock Lesnar...it's like some kind of desperate pro wrestling schlock!

 

[jack36767]

I broke records for my program at state every year. That's kentucky state championship. Participation in state and overall points in state. And I did it with a small intellectual school that couldn't produce an athlete to save its life because I was using freestyle techniques.

I have adressed every single one of your points with not only logic but photographic and video evidence.

Exactly which one of your points have I not addressed?.

don't bury it in a rambling paragraph just put one point up that I have not addressed

You're just a red white and blue Patriot that wants to stick up for your sport and I understand that.

I'm not the one separating these techniques into folkstyle and freestyle thats what the coaches, books and athletes say.

Judos recent rule fiddling is a perfect example of how we are ruining grappling sports with stupid rules that we keep changing...that's the whole thrust of this thread

The fact that they keep changing over complicated rules is the reason why nobody pays attention to wrestling in this country.

The vast majority of mixed martial arts champions in the United States are folkstyle wrestlers and to this day you can't find a single martial arts school that teaches folk style wrestling...do you understand the disconnect there?

Freestyle wrestlers are very rare in American MMA competition and when they do have an opportunity to compete they usually dominate...

Khabib 101

Once again American promoters are not scowering the globe for people that can Crush their American champions.

Look at the way they keep pushing Brock Lesnar...it's like some kind of desperate pro wrestling schlock!

What school in Kentucky.. tell me . I’m anxious in anticipation. Oh my god you taught some throws and you had wins in Kentucky. That’s so amazing. What happened when you went north of the river.. again I’m waiting

It’s not rambling, if you are so obtuse you don’t understand why Folkstyle doesn’t have adult clubs. If you don’t understand that the popularity of wrestling really isn’t about “rules being complicated”. If you see Khabib as a “freestyle” guy only. Well again obtuse. Or a troll. It’s amazing how few can see the big picture. I also know, if you’re not trolling of course, that part of why you hate folkstyle is your kids would be “in matches then decked on the mat. I’ve met coaches like you before

 

[-guerilla-]

What school in Kentucky.. tell me . I’m anxious in anticipation. Oh my god you taught some throws and you had wins in Kentucky. That’s so amazing. What happened when you went north of the river.. again I’m waiting

It’s not rambling, if you are so obtuse you don’t understand why Folkstyle doesn’t have adult clubs. If you don’t understand that the popularity of wrestling really isn’t about “rules being complicated”. If you see Khabib as a “freestyle” guy only. Well again obtuse. Or a troll. It’s amazing how few can see the big picture. I also know, if you’re not trolling of course, that part of why you hate folkstyle is your kids would be “in matches then decked on the mat. I’ve met coaches like you before

I coached at the tiny little school next to my house in Louisville KY, it was called Atherton.

And as I said multiple times these districts do not produce strong wrestlers.

I broke records at that school because I was an excellent coach that didn't come in there and try to teach the same old folk style crap.

Growing up internationally I was exposed to a lot of different grappling styles and that gave me a big Advantage when I was fighting or coaching.

You know perfectly well they keep changing the rules because they're trying to manipulate matches to be more exciting for the television viewing audience.

You also know perfectly well that the Olympics almost cut wrestling for 2020 ...they cited the American television viewing numbers as a major factor.

The fact is Americans chose to invent their own rules for the world's oldest sport instead of stepping up to the plate and competing on the world stage with the same set of rules that everybody else uses

this has put the Americans at a hopeless disadvantage when they step onto the Olympic mat so they get beat and nobody wants to watch Americans get beat by Iranians on American TV.

I got to give it to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they turned Judo groundwork into one of the most popular martial arts the world has ever seen.

Judo and wrestling failed miserably to get anywhere in this country...

at least Americans didn't invent their own style of Judo... they just get Beat fair and square at regular judo and all other combat sports!

Folkstyle is the reason Americans get stomped at the Olympics

Since Americans get stomped at the Olympics the television ratings for wrestling suck

Because the television ratings suck WRESTLING ALMOST GOT DROPPED FROM THE 2020 OLYMPICS

FOLKSTYLE ALMOST KILLED WRESTLING WORLDWIDE.

 

[jack36767]

I coached at the tiny little school next to my house in Louisville KY, it was called Atherton.

And as I said multiple times these districts do not produce strong wrestlers.

I broke records at that school because I was an excellent coach that didn't come in there and try to teach the same old folk style crap.

Growing up internationally I was exposed to a lot of different grappling styles and that gave me a big Advantage when I was fighting or coaching.

You know perfectly well they keep changing the rules because they're trying to manipulate matches to be more exciting for the television viewing audience.

You also know perfectly well that the Olympics almost cut wrestling for 2020 ...they cited the American television viewing numbers as a major factor.

The fact is Americans chose to invent their own rules for the world's oldest sport instead of stepping up to the plate and competing on the world stage with the same set of rules that everybody else uses

this has put the Americans at a hopeless disadvantage when they step onto the Olympic mat so they get beat and nobody wants to watch Americans get beat by Iranians on American TV.

I got to give it to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they turned Judo groundwork into one of the most popular martial arts the world has ever seen.

Judo and wrestling failed miserably to get anywhere in this country...

at least Americans didn't invent their own style of Judo... they just get Beat fair and square at regular judo and all other combat sports!

Folkstyle is the reason Americans get stomped at the Olympics

Since Americans get stomped at the Olympics the television ratings for wrestling suck

Because the television ratings suck WRESTLING ALMOST GOT DROPPED FROM THE 2020 OLYMPICS

FOLKSTYLE ALMOST KILLED WRESTLING

You do understand that once a way was found to keep athletes paid and supported in the US that the US has been top 3 in the world the past few years. The US troubles at the Senior level were to..
1. Corruption (see Kolat as most well known example) but if you have half the knowledge you claim you know that many many US athletes were straight up fucked in matches
2. No money or support system meant that most athletes in the US could not afford to train full time after college
3. Rules (the 3 period, ball grab) which were designed to benefit the Russians and made corruption easier
The last few years.. US athletes are able to be supported and train full time after college.. and the reffing is at least somewhat fair.. “oh my god!! They’re winning titles and medals, oh my god it’s so shocking!” Eye roll

Of course television ratings were bad, not even freestyle people liked the ball grab era. And there was way more politics involved in the Olympic scare than TV ratings.. again I question your knowledge if you don’t understand this

Oh and umm.. you do know that FREESTYLE has changed the rules FAR more often than folk did, nearly every year. To the point it was confusing straight freestyle non folk people.

And sigh, drive 2 hours north and the coaches know a little more than the Kentucky cow catcher and half Nelson folkstyle crap. And nice troll attempt

 

[jack36767]

I broke records for my program at state every year. That's kentucky state championship. Participation in state and overall points in state. And I did it with a small intellectual school that couldn't produce an athlete to save its life because I was using freestyle techniques.

I have adressed every single one of your points with not only logic but photographic and video evidence.

Exactly which one of your points have I not addressed?.

don't bury it in a rambling paragraph just put one point up that I have not addressed

You're just a red white and blue Patriot that wants to stick up for your sport and I understand that.

I'm not the one separating these techniques into folkstyle and freestyle thats what the coaches, books and athletes say.

Judos recent rule fiddling is a perfect example of how we are ruining grappling sports with stupid rules that we keep changing...that's the whole thrust of this thread

The fact that they keep changing over complicated rules is the reason why nobody pays attention to wrestling in this country.

The vast majority of mixed martial arts champions in the United States are folkstyle wrestlers and to this day you can't find a single martial arts school that teaches folk style wrestling...do you understand the disconnect there?

Freestyle wrestlers are very rare in American MMA competition and when they do have an opportunity to compete they usually dominate...

Khabib 101

Once again American promoters are not scowering the globe for people that can Crush their American champions.

Look at the way they keep pushing Brock Lesnar...it's like some kind of desperate pro wrestling schlock!

Atherton never even got second.. Jesus I almost wish I had taken the North Hardin job

 

[-guerilla-]

Atherton never even got second.. Jesus I almost wish I had taken the North Hardin job

and guess who scored the most points in the schools history at state...

 

[-guerilla-]

You do understand that once a way was found to keep athletes paid and supported in the US that the US has been top 3 in the world the past few years. The US troubles at the Senior level were to..
1. Corruption (see Kolat as most well known example) but if you have half the knowledge you claim you know that many many US athletes were straight up fucked in matches
2. No money or support system meant that most athletes in the US could not afford to train full time after college
3. Rules (the 3 period, ball grab) which were designed to benefit the Russians and made corruption easier
The last few years.. US athletes are able to be supported and train full time after college.. and the reffing is at least somewhat fair.. “oh my god!! They’re winning titles and medals, oh my god it’s so shocking!” Eye roll

Of course television ratings were bad, not even freestyle people liked the ball grab era. And there was way more politics involved in the Olympic scare than TV ratings.. again I question your knowledge if you don’t understand this

Oh and umm.. you do know that FREESTYLE has changed the rules FAR more often than folk did, nearly every year. To the point it was confusing straight freestyle non folk people.

And sigh, drive 2 hours north and the coaches know a little more than the Kentucky cow catcher and half Nelson folkstyle crap. And nice troll attempt

I said changing rules was what ruined ALL GRAPPLING sports, not just folkstyle.

You should go back and read the OP once and a while.

AMERICAN tv ratings is all the IOC cares about...they hate wrestling
(cause nobody understands the olympic rules)

Folkstyle lack of popularity in the only country that practiced it almost killed olympic wrestling!!!

The day the USA ditches folkstyle and adopts olympic wrestling is the day the USA will be part of the solution instead of the problem!

The day we stop fiddling with grappling rules is the day the average fan will be able to follow it.

 

[Balto]

Try to mount your opponent and get upa'd? +1 advantage

Obtain a mounted triangle? Zero points or advantages.

Thanks IBJJF.

You'll still get an advantage for the mounted triangle eventually if the guy escapes.

In that video, they just mean you won't score any advantages in that position related to the mount part. But you still get your advantage for the triangle part (same as you would for locking up a triangle from the guard, etc.)

 

[-guerilla-]

You'll still get an advantage for the mounted triangle eventually if the guy escapes.

In that video, they just mean you won't score any advantages in that position related to the mount part. But you still get your advantage for the triangle part (same as you would for locking up a triangle from the guard, etc.)

No score for mount?

My last loss in bjj occurred when my guy switched from cross side to knee on belly twice after I missed a throw...

Hilarious scoring system

 

[Balto]

No score for mount?

My last loss in bjj occurred when my guy switched from cross side to knee on belly twice after I missed a throw...

Hilarious scoring system

The mount scores four points. That video is just clarifying that a triangle from the top is not considered mount for the scoring.

But even though the triangle from the top is not considered mount, it can score other ways.

 

[FighterTwister]

Opinions of some of the most accomplished wrestlers in folkstyle





Best folkstyle athlete in history getting beat (badly) by freestyle ...with the "crotchlift"

Great videos worth bookmarking, personally don't like wrestling but it is cool, in my high school days we had a state champ and sometimes watched him train during lunch hour, slippery little suckers lol

So seems like all the politics took away the fun reading this thread, why, what are the reasons / angles for making these changes?

Is it due to qualifying and growing participants or high caliber of talent or variety of skills training why exactly, I mean from an official judging point of view?

 

[rmongler]

It's like none of these guys have ever heard of Kyle Dake.

 

[yetanother]

Hilarious scoring system

The IBJJF rules are super tricky and vague in a lot of edge cases but that's because they are fundamentally weird with a lot of things not written down in the rule book, example: a slam is not defined at all. If you win convincingly the rules tend to work fine if you sneak by, stall and try to game them things often depend on vague decisions and technicalities.
The tweaks IBJJF mostly seem positive but they do have a super conservative approach of tweaking the most egregious things then reworking them. From sherdog discussions I have the feel people who spend a ton of time studying them and referring like how complex and unclear they end up and bitchasses with no cardio love how stalling friendly they are.

 

[-guerilla-]

The IBJJF rules are super tricky and vague in a lot of edge cases but that's because they are fundamentally weird with a lot of things not written down in the rule book, example: a slam is not defined at all. If you win convincingly the rules tend to work fine if you sneak by, stall and try to game them things often depend on vague decisions and technicalities.
The tweaks IBJJF mostly seem positive but they do have a super conservative approach of tweaking the most egregious things then reworking them. From sherdog discussions I have the feel people who spend a ton of time studying them and referring like how complex and unclear they end up and bitchasses with no cardio love how stalling friendly they are.

How often do they change the rules??

I find that they primarily do this in a misguided attempt to accommodate television viewership in Judo and wrestling!

 

[-guerilla-]

Great videos worth bookmarking, personally don't like wrestling but it is cool, in my high school days we had a state champ and sometimes watched him train during lunch hour, slippery little suckers lol

So seems like all the politics took away the fun reading this thread, why, what are the reasons / angles for making these changes?

Is it due to qualifying and growing participants or high caliber of talent or variety of skills training why exactly, I mean from an official judging point of view?

For me wrestling and JUDO are the best in the standing tie up, throw, sweep takedown and control positions however whenever your on the ground Brazilian jiu-jitsu is still King.

It's the rules for competition that end up manipulating how its taught and retained and expressed and ultimately can seal its fate as a martial art

The main Crux of this thread was about how rule manipulation ends up taking away from a sports growth by confusing the public Spectators and reducing its overall marketability.

 

[-guerilla-]

The mount scores four points. That video is just clarifying that a triangle from the top is not considered mount for the scoring.

But even though the triangle from the top is not considered mount, it can score other ways.

Okay Mount scores 4 points...

My opponent beat me by switching back and forth to knee on belly and cross side real fast a couple times.

I thought it was kind of cheesy but that's the game , although I usually tapped him in practice he was extremely good at winning on points.

Gamesmanship goes a long way if you have a complicated scoring system

 

[yetanother]

How often do they change the rules??

I find that they primarily do this in a misguided attempt to accommodate television viewership in Judo and wrestling!

Would have to look that up. Seems like once per year or two recently. They do change the unwritten rules down without updating the rule book too. They don't care about the viewership almost at all because they make money from competitors.