How to Smartly Deload on an Intermediate Program?

[casperthegst]

When I started Texas Method. I started out doing it 3x5. And personally it did not work so well for me. 5x5 did alot more for me in terms of volume. But I started out doing 5x5's.

I never did any dynamic effort work on TM, and not sure how you could use it as your stressor for tm either.

You are actually supposed to transition to the texas method the first week by using ascending sets of 5 then use 5x5 for a while. As you continue you adjust the volume and intensity days accordingly.

 

[ripl1ne]

Madcow definitely isn't a 9 or 12 week program, you should be running it for as long as you can.

+1 for the 50% deload. Try doing it for a week every few weeks and just fitting it in-beteween your programmed lifts i.e. week 10 - deload - week 11.

I think in the long run a structured/periodised deload (rather than a "when I feel I need it" deload) will be more beneficial.

e.g. for back to back Madcow runs

Mesocycle 1: Microcycle 1-4:..5x5 Loading (4 weeks)
Mesocycle 2: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week (1 week)
Mesocycle 2: Microcycles 2-5:.5x5 Intensity Weeks (4 weeks)
Mesocycle 3: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week (1 week)
Mesocycle 3: Microcycle 2-5:..5x5 Loading Week (4 weeks)
Mesocycle 4: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week (1 week)
Mesocycle 4: Microcycle 2-5:..5x5 Intensity Weeks (4 weeks)
Repeat Mesocycles 2-4

So alternating loading and intensity phases. Effectively, out of every 10 week block, you have:-

Weeks 1-4 ..... 5x5 Loading
Week 5 - ....... 5x5 50% Deload
Weeks 6-10 .... 5x5 Intensity
Week 11 ........ 5x5 Deload

This makes it easy to build in specific work in between mesocycles. e.g. if you want to add in a 2 week program focusing on plyometrics or endurance work, just add in a 2 week microcycle in between mesocycles 2 and 3.

Keep in mind that's a only one method of deloading (cutting intensity by 50% and keeping volume and frequency the same every 5th week). Another method of deloading would be to dramatically cut volume and keep intensity high every 5th week.

 

[Pathogenic]

Damn, that's quite the plan! Thanks for putting your time in to make that. Oftentimes, toward the end of a good run, I can feel my reps getting slower week-by-week. I like the idea of planned deload periods. I wouldn't mind trying it out to see how well it works!

 

[ripl1ne]

No problems mate, I expanded it a little and made it into a FB note for some friends, so thought I'd repost that:-

Madcow definitely isn't a 9 or 12 week program, you should be running it for as long as you can.

+1 for the 50% deload. Try doing it for a week every few weeks and just fitting it in-beteween your programmed lifts i.e. week 10 - deload - week 11.

I think in the long run a structured/periodised deload (rather than a "when I feel I need it" deload) will be the most beneficial way to incorporate deloads. Deloading is necessary to allow for CNS recovery after short periods of intentional overtraining (dual-factor theory, check out links below). It's like the 4th week of Wendler's 5/3/1, except that progression/intensity (and usually volume) on 531 is much slower, so most people won't need to deload anywhere near as often, until they're fairly advanced (and pushing serious weight!). Just taking a week off training is usually a pretty crappy way of deloading. Doing a week of the same lifts except with 50% of the weight (i.e. 50% intensity) has a lot of benefits, including cementing the movement patterns, giving you a chance to assess your form (which is just as important when doing light weights, so that it translates to your heavier lifting), and doubles up as crude dynamic work if you really focus on speed. Another option would be to switch the rep scheme for the deload weeks to something like 5/6 x 2 @ 30-50% (aiming for a weight that is like 90% of your max speed with no weight, if that makes sense).

e.g. for back to back Madcow runs

Mesocycle 1: Microcycle 1-4:..5x5 Loading (4 weeks)
Mesocycle 2: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week (1 week)
Mesocycle 2: Microcycles 2-5:.5x5 Intensity Weeks (4 weeks)
Mesocycle 3: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week (1 week)
Mesocycle 3: Microcycle 2-5:..5x5 Loading Week (4 weeks)
Mesocycle 4: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week (1 week)
Mesocycle 4: Microcycle 2-5:..5x5 Intensity Weeks (4 weeks)Repeat Mesocycles 2-4

So alternating loading and intensity phases. Effectively, out of every 10 week block, you have:-

Week 1 ........ 5x5 Deload
Weeks 2-4 ..... 5x5 Loading
Week 5 - ....... 5x5 50% Deload
Weeks 6-10 .... 5x5 Intensity

Looking at it in terms of macrocycles (~1yr) mesocycles (4-6 weeks) and microcycles (1-2 weeks) allows you to effectively program in all sorts of stuff, depending on your training needs. This makes it easy to build in specific work in between mesocycles. e.g. if you want to add in a 2 week program focusing on plyometrics or endurance work, just add in a 2 week microcycle in between mesocycles 2 and 3.

Keep in mind that's a only one method of deloading (cutting intensity by 50% and keeping volume and frequency the same every 5th week). Another method of deloading would be to dramatically cut volume and keep intensity high every 5th week.
For more reading:

Training Primer
http://madcow.hostzi.com/Topics/Training_Primer.htm

Dual Factor Theory
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/training-forum/best-meso-best-johnsmith-12.html#post48 (NOT about steroids)

Training Theory
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/training-forum/best-meso-training-theory-8500.html (Again, NOT about steroids)

Stronglifts ripoff (cough *rehost) of Madcow's 5x5 adaption
http://stronglifts.com/madcow-5x5-training-programs/

All of the above and more
http://luizfernando.info/files/PPST.pdf (pdf link to Practical Programming by Rippetoe)

 

[Pathogenic]

Thanks again for clarifying even more. So what separates the loading phase from the intensity phase? Is it just a 4 week reset like in the first four weeks of Madcow, where you build up to your previous maxes?

 

[Fighting Sprite]

That program above seems very, very similar to Bill starr's 5x5 advanced. You should take a look at it. Even if you don't use the advanced program, it could help you understand the one above.

http://stronglifts.com/madcow/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

 

[ripl1ne]

Thanks again for clarifying even more. So what separates the loading phase from the intensity phase? Is it just a 4 week reset like in the first four weeks of Madcow, where you build up to your previous maxes?

Yeah, exactly. You start off at 10% (or whatever) below your previous 5RM and build up to your original PR in Week 3 and beat it in Week 4. Then during the intensity phase ideally you're beating your previous weeks PR by 2.5% each week (or whatever, check out the Madcow spreadsheet for an example, I think Stronglifts has a working link to it - yup http://cdn.stronglifts.com/wp-content/uploads/stronglifts-madcow-5x5.zip).

This may not be the most efficient way of doing it (and a lot depends on your individual recovery ability / diet / outside workload e.g. sport specific training), but it's a pretty rough and ready guide.

There's some good reading about loading/intensification in that link on dual factor theory I posted at http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html.

That program above seems very, very similar to Bill starr's 5x5 advanced. You should take a look at it. Even if you don't use the advanced program, it could help you understand the one above.

http://stronglifts.com/madcow/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

It's almost identical, just a different way of varying V/I/F (i.e. significantly reducing intensity every 5th week) to deload while sticking with the intermediate 5x5 program structure rather than the advanced program structure. I'm not really a fan of the flat 5x5 sets in the Pendlay 5x5 program, it seems that too many people I know end up injuring themselves doing it (Stronglifts is a perfect example). Probably because they don't have the knowledge/experience of how to tailor the program to suit their recovery ability, and end up trying to do flat 5x5's with weights that they aren't ready for.

 

[casperthegst]

This looks like a good idea. I was wondering if you knew how to program the texas method in this fashion? For instance you have your high volume day then recovery day then intensity. Ok so once you can longer progress weekly how would you program it to say doing a high volume week, recovery week, intensity week. I am assuming you could just keep adding weeks as this 3 week rotation wears off but I am not sure on the programming of it.

 

[Pathogenic]

Thanks for the clarification, FS and Rip! This whole thread has helped me immensely.

Now if only I could figure out how to work in some DE stuff, I'd never want to change programs!

 

[casperthegst]

This looks like a good idea. I was wondering if you knew how to program the texas method in this fashion? For instance you have your high volume day then recovery day then intensity. Ok so once you can longer progress weekly how would you program it to say doing a high volume week, recovery week, intensity week. I am assuming you could just keep adding weeks as this 3 week rotation wears off but I am not sure on the programming of it.

 

[ripl1ne]

This looks like a good idea. I was wondering if you knew how to program the texas method in this fashion? For instance you have your high volume day then recovery day then intensity. Ok so once you can longer progress weekly how would you program it to say doing a high volume week, recovery week, intensity week. I am assuming you could just keep adding weeks as this 3 week rotation wears off but I am not sure on the programming of it.

The meso/microcycles I posted above should work for any 5x5 program, including the Texas Method (which is very similar to the Madcow 5x5 Intermediate program anyway). I wouldn't separate the volume/recovery/intensity workouts into weeks, I'd keep them how they are, but periodise the overall program to allow for periods of recovery/supercompensation.

I guess when looked at in terms of your macrocycle (i.e. over a year), you can think of it like this:-

Week 1-4 Loading
Week 5 Deload
Week 6-9 Intensification
Week 10 Deload
Week 11-14 Loading (this and the two deload week before and after are also your recovery phase, although you should still be hitting a PR on your Week 14)
Week 15 Deload
Week 16-19 Intensification/Supercompensation
Week 20 Deload

So with the Texas Method, you would run the normal program in Weeks 1-4, ideally hitting a PR of 2.5% over your previous TRAINING (not REAL) 5RM in Week 4. Then in Weeks 6-9, you hit new PR's each Week. In Week 10 you deload, and recalculate your 5RM so that in Week 11 you start with ~10% lower than your Week 9 weight, and hit a new PR in Week 14.

So if your training 5RM (90% of your real 5RM) was 105kg, it'd look something like this:-

Loading Phase
Week 1 100kg
Week 2 102.5kg
Week 3 105kg
Week 4 107.5kg (PR!)
Week 5 60kg (Deload)

Intensification Phase
Week 6 110kg
Week 7 112.5kg
Week 8 115kg
Week 9 117.5kg
Week 10 60kg (Deload)

Loading Phase
Week 11 112.5kg
Week 12 115kg
Week 13 117.5kg
Week 14 120kg (PR)
Week 15 60kg (Deload)

Intensification Phase
Week 16 122.5kg
Week 17 125kg
Week 18 127.5kg
Week 19 130kg
Week 20 65kg (Deload)

So comparing linear progression over that period (i.e. single factor training model, like TM 5x5), if you could run it over a 20 week period, your original lift would jump from 100kg 5x5 to 150kg 5x5 (a 50% increase). Obviously that's not very realistic for someone who's moved beyond the novice/lower intermediate stage (and if you haven't moved past that, you should still be doing a linear program).

How aggressively you reset your 5RM for each loading phase just depends on your individual performance. The one I've outlined above would be for someone who's just come to the point where they're stalling fairly often on the normal TM, and need to stretch it out over a bit longer period, with some "strategic" deloading to allow for a bit more CNS recovery/adaptation.

 

[casperthegst]

i see...will definitely keep this in mind

im sure you could make this work but the texas method is all about adjusting your volume day as you progress just enough to spur progress on a weekly basis ...just not sure that a planned deload is necessary but i guess theres only one way to find out right

 

[ripl1ne]

i see...will definitely keep this in mind

im sure you could make this work but the texas method is all about adjusting your volume day as you progress just enough to spur progress on a weekly basis ...just not sure that a planned deload is necessary but i guess theres only one way to find out right

The problem with varying it 'off the cuff', is that once you reach a certain point it just doesn't work. That's why there's so much thought that goes into programming.

I am interested in your comment about using dynamic work as a stressor though. I can't really imagine how it would work, but I'll certainly take another look at PP sometime to see what Rippetoe said about it.

What is it exactly about the Texas Method that you like? If you've found that you enjoyed doing it, but you've stalled for some reason, there's plenty of ways of dealing with that.

Pretty much all these 5x5 programs are the same anyway. They are just structured linear progression. There's only variations in exercise selection / volume. Whichever one you decide to run, milk it for all it's worth, but at some stage you WILL need to implement periodisation. Whether you decide to do that by switching to something like 5/3/1 or Westside (Westside effectively periodises by alternating ME exercises), or whether you decide to periodise a 5x5 program just depends on what you want to do.

 

[casperthegst]

The problem with varying it 'off the cuff', is that once you reach a certain point it just doesn't work. That's why there's so much thought that goes into programming.

I am interested in your comment about using dynamic work as a stressor though. I can't really imagine how it would work, but I'll certainly take another look at PP sometime to see what Rippetoe said about it.

What is it exactly about the Texas Method that you like? If you've found that you enjoyed doing it, but you've stalled for some reason, there's plenty of ways of dealing with that.

Pretty much all these 5x5 programs are the same anyway. They are just structured linear progression. There's only variations in exercise selection / volume. Whichever one you decide to run, milk it for all it's worth, but at some stage you WILL need to implement periodisation. Whether you decide to do that by switching to something like 5/3/1 or Westside (Westside effectively periodises by alternating ME exercises), or whether you decide to periodise a 5x5 program just depends on what you want to do.

I was planning on starting off with madcow until that stalls out then switching to the texas method and try to milk out more intermediate gains at least this is how the stronglifts and i believe glenn pendlay said to do it. After that stalls out I will probably try something similar to 5 3 1. I was thinking of doing the dual factor advanced 5x5 but after you made the comment about it injuring people I don't think I am going to do it. Im sure it could work but Im really not experienced enough to go about changing the variables on a program like that. I got the idea about the texas method split into weeks instead of days from Justin Lasceks ebook but he doesn't really go into much detail on it.

 

[DrBdan]

The problem with varying it 'off the cuff', is that once you reach a certain point it just doesn't work. That's why there's so much thought that goes into programming.

I am interested in your comment about using dynamic work as a stressor though. I can't really imagine how it would work, but I'll certainly take another look at PP sometime to see what Rippetoe said about it.

What is it exactly about the Texas Method that you like? If you've found that you enjoyed doing it, but you've stalled for some reason, there's plenty of ways of dealing with that.

Pretty much all these 5x5 programs are the same anyway. They are just structured linear progression. There's only variations in exercise selection / volume. Whichever one you decide to run, milk it for all it's worth, but at some stage you WILL need to implement periodisation. Whether you decide to do that by switching to something like 5/3/1 or Westside (Westside effectively periodises by alternating ME exercises), or whether you decide to periodise a 5x5 program just depends on what you want to do.

Just for the sake of completeness I'd like to point out that the Texas Method already does implement a basic form of periodization by utilizing the volume/recovery/intensity format. It's basically wave periodization squished into one week.

You are correct though eventually the weekly progression becomes too much and you need to implement something that slows progression. I like your idea of alternating loading/intensification phases with TM, maybe I'll give it a try next time I focus solely on lifting

 

[ripl1ne]

I was planning on starting off with madcow until that stalls out then switching to the texas method and try to milk out more intermediate gains at least this is how the stronglifts and i believe glenn pendlay said to do it. After that stalls out I will probably try something similar to 5 3 1. I was thinking of doing the dual factor advanced 5x5 but after you made the comment about it injuring people I don't think I am going to do it. Im sure it could work but Im really not experienced enough to go about changing the variables on a program like that. I got the idea about the texas method split into weeks instead of days from Justin Lasceks ebook but he doesn't really go into much detail on it.

It's the flat 5x5 programs, and in particular Stronglifts that I've seen a lot of people seem to injure themselves on. Texas Method also runs a flat 5x5 for the Day 1 exercises. The volume on the other 2 days isn't anywhere near as high as SL5x5 though. The only other thing I don't really like is that the cleans are done last, rather than first.

It doesn't really matter whether you pick Madcow or Texas Method, just stick with it until you stall. Then reset your lifts 10% and try again. If you're getting enough calories, you should get at least 6 months out of weekly linear progression, although you will probably need to deload and reset a couple of times during that period. After that you can think about implementing periodisation (like described earlier) or switching to something like 5/3/1.

Just for the sake of completeness I'd like to point out that the Texas Method already does implement a basic form of periodization by utilizing the volume/recovery/intensity format. It's basically wave periodization squished into one week.

You are correct though eventually the weekly progression becomes too much and you need to implement something that slows progression. I like your idea of alternating loading/intensification phases with TM, maybe I'll give it a try next time I focus solely on lifting

Good point, thanks.

 

[ripl1ne]

Replied to a PM from Pathogen earlier, thought I'd post something similar here. He asked about incorporating DE work on a 5x5 program (Madcow). I took another look at Rippetoe's comments in PP - thanks for that Casper.

What I suggested was just replacing the Day 3 with speed work. That should be enough of a stressor (if done properly) to disrupt homeostasis and allow for recovery and supercompensation. It's fairly CNS intensive though, probably more so than the normal intermediate template, so it's probably not something that will work on the normal linear progression template for extended periods of time. Definitely worth trying out for 6-10 weeks though. I'm off to Mexico for 6 weeks in Feb, so I might jump on this when I get back and give it a go.

So the program would look something like this:

Monday
Squat 5 x 5 (ramping)
Bench 5x5 (Ramping)
Power Cleans 5 x 3 (flat) or Pendlay Row 5 x 5 (ramping)

Wednesday
Squat 4 x 5 (ramping to same weight as Monday's 3rd set, then repeating)
Military Press or Push Press 4 x 5 (ramping)
Deadlift 4 x 5 (ramping)

Friday (speed work) - same as the speed work template on Texas Method
Box Squat 10 x 2 @ 40 - 50%
Speed Bench 10 x 3 @ 40 - 65%
Deadlift 8 x 1 @ 30 - 50%

The speed reps should be done (obviously) fast, with about 1 minute rest in between sets, and at a weight that allows you to move the bar at 100% speed for EVERY rep. The 20th rep should be just as fast (or faster) than the 1st rep. Usually you would find a weight that works and keep it the same for a few weeks.

My main concern is that on Madcow, the inclusion of Deadlifts on Day 2 might not allow you sufficient recovery. The flip side of course is that the volume is much lower on Day 1 because the sets are ramping rather than flat. It really just depends on the individual as to which program you prefer.