How significant was Randy Couture vs Tito Ortiz at the time?

[Fujita]

Really wasn't a beef, Couture did call him out and Tito didn't like it.. saying he ducked Chuck and he fought him and beat him..

A very one sided fight, loved it.

 

[autolycus]

Is it true that Wand was 23 when he fought Tito? Is it true that very few fighters are at their best at that age? Is it true that Tito was Wand's second top-20 opponent (and the Belfort fight didn't really give him any meaningful experience)? What's the problem here?

You don't see people cry when you note that Anderson wasn't at his best when he lost to Chonan or that Gus wasn't at his best when he lost to Davis (I could go on all day with that). Lots of guys lose early in their careers, and it doesn't mean that the guy who beat them would be favored against them when they were in their primes.

Tito was only 25 when they fought and had less experience.

Fighters peak at different times. Most don't start fighting at 19 like Wand did. Fighters who start younger peak younger.

 

[arrmike]

That Randy is #3 lhw of all time, IMO.

 

[BLIND]

Slightly related but I just watched chuck vs randy 1 again. I know chuck says he didn't train too hard for that figh, but idk how much that mattered. Within 1 minute randy bounced chuck off the cage and slammed him about as hard as any slam I've seen (barring page vs arona).
Chuck did look a bit slow and his jab looked like shit, but Randy was sharp as fuck that night. Slips a punch, cuts the corner and drives liddell to the canvas. Had 3 slams. He was jabbing and moving without needing to be so over aggressive like he was in the 2nd and 3rd fights. Beating chuck and tito back to back was insane at the time.
"Tito! I don't know if you're in the house baby, but if you want this belt, you're gonna have to come and take it!" Beastly!!

 

[Jack V Savage]

Tito had already beaten Wanderlei Silva, who was the Pride MW Champ at the time. Shogun hadn't really risen to stardom yet. The only other LHW out there who might've been considered on Tito's level would be Rampage, but those two would never fight each other.

Tito beat a pre-prime Silva. If you look at the Fight Matrix rankings from right after the fight, Silva and Couture were the only top-10 LHWs Ortiz had faced, and if you extend down to 20, you just add Kondo (who Ortiz also beat pre-prime).

I'm aware that there were UFC-only fans who would argue that Ortiz was legitimately the best LHW going into his fight with Couture, but at the very least, you should realize that his claim was much, much weaker than Jones' current claim, and Couture's standing in the sport was nowhere near where Cormier currently is. It was more similar to what Askren vs. Lombard would be than what Jones vs. Cormier is in terms of how the fighters are regarded (different because despite not being a truly elite LHW, Tito was kind of a star).

 

[NativeAmericana]

Historically, it's an important fight as well. I think it showed that Tito was never the top LHW in the world. Frank Shamrock beat him in 1999 and Randy could've cut to 205 and beaten him any time. (Randy made his UFC debut in 1997. They just didn't happen to fight until 2003.

Having said that, Tito was a top 3 LHW for quite a few years. He did beat Belfort and Wand after all.

The Belfort and Wand fight were close fights.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Randy saying the thing about Tito's wife liking his ears was pretty gold, but iirc he also had some badass trash talk in the pre-fight promo. Something like "I've wrestled at the elite level, I've wrestled for 30 years. Tito wrestled at junior college....for 1 year" Seems sort of out of character for the Randy to be smack talking an opponent, but Tito will bring that out of you I guess haha

 

[lukeuidswords]

Slightly related but I just watched chuck vs randy 1 again. I know chuck says he didn't train too hard for that figh, but idk how much that mattered. Within 1 minute randy bounced chuck off the cage and slammed him about as hard as any slam I've seen (barring page vs arona).
Chuck did look a bit slow and his jab looked like shit, but Randy was sharp as fuck that night. Slips a punch, cuts the corner and drives liddell to the canvas. Had 3 slams. He was jabbing and moving without needing to be so over aggressive like he was in the 2nd and 3rd fights. Beating chuck and tito back to back was insane at the time.
"Tito! I don't know if you're in the house baby, but if you want this belt, you're gonna have to come and take it!" Beastly!!

Randy was a god that night

 

[ocfightfan]

There was no beef. Tito was ducking Chuck & pretending to have beef with the UFC. Randy beat Chuck and Tito is all of a sudden ready to fight again.

Pretty much this. I guess Tito thought a young wrestler would beat down an old wrestler, boy was he wrong.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Tito was only 25 when they fought and had less experience.

Fighters peak at different times. Most don't start fighting at 19 like Wand did. Fighters who start younger peak younger.

Fighters peak at different times, but did Wand peak at 23? Obviously not. When he fought Tito, he was still considered a prospect. He later, after demonstrating considerable improvement, was considered the best MW/LHW in the world. Again, I don't understand the issue here. Maybe take another 10 months to think about it. Why is this even a controversial claim (much less one that I only adopt out of some inexplicable sense of convenience)?

 

[fightdonttweet]

Also, on an unassociated side note...... The UFC have oversaturated the market to the point where nobody really cares about when the next UFC is on. Just take a glance at UFC buyrates now compared to each previous years gone by.

Couture v. Tito did under 100k

 

[autolycus]

Fighters peak at different times, but did Wand? Obviously not. When he fought Tito, he was still considered a prospect. He later, after demonstrating considerable improvement, was considered the best MW/LHW in the world. Again, I don't understand the issue here. Maybe take another 10 months to think about it. Why is this even a controversial claim (much less one that I only adopt out of some inexplicable sense of convenience)?

Why obviously not? Tito beat Wand in the midst of what would otherwise have been a 25 fight unbeaten streak.

Btw, Anderson was probably in his prime much earlier than you think. Before he lost to Weidman, he only has four losses. One was a decision loss in his third fight. Another was a DQ when he blatantly kicked Okami when he was down. Another was a high risk move by Chonan that happened to pay off. The only sort of embarrassing one was Takase, but I think everyone is entitled to a brain fart here and there.

 

[grimballer]

[YT]KrQOF4hJXiY[/YT]

Ppl really don't give Tito nuff credit for what he did for the sport.

He was going on sports shows promoting mma when it was illegal in half of states n almost nonexistent in other countries (excluding japan).

Chuck n randy are great fighters, but they wouldn't be anything without Tito selling those fights.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Why obviously not? Tito beat Wand in the midst of what would otherwise have been a 25 fight unbeaten streak.

In the beginning. At the portion when he was facing weak competition. He would later destroy Rampage twice, who was much better than Tito ever was. I think it's obvious from watching him, but it's in the results, too.

Btw, Anderson was probably in his prime much earlier than you think. Before he lost to Weidman, he only has four losses. One was a decision loss in his third fight. Another was a DQ when he blatantly kicked Okami when he was down. Another was a high risk move by Chonan that happened to pay off. The only sort of embarrassing one was Takase, but I think everyone is entitled to a brain fart here and there.

I don't know when you think I think Anderson peaked, but I'd say he was a bit of a late bloomer. Late 20s and early 30s. I think the Cote fight was the first sign that he was slowing down. People forget that between Cote and Sonnen I (including those two), he was disappointing in four out of five fights. Then he had kind of a second peak (hmm).

 

[Deleted member 110072]

It was I would say somewhat akin to Lesnar vs Cain, Brock and Tito were certainly legit but were also rather overhyped and ended up losing to someone less hyped who was actually superior.

 

[autolycus]

In the beginning. At the portion when he was facing weak competition. He would later destroy Rampage twice, who was much better than Tito ever was. I think it's obvious from watching him, but it's in the results, too.



I don't know when you think I think Anderson peaked, but I'd say he was a bit of a late bloomer. Late 20s and early 30s. I think the Cote fight was the first sign that he was slowing down. People forget that between Cote and Sonnen I (including those two), he was disappointing in four out of five fights. Then he had kind of a second peak (hmm).

Your "hmm" comment is the perfect time to point out that if Wand was significantly better in Pride, it wasn't due to some significant improvement in technique.

If you want to say that Wanderlei Silva was not in his prime 4 months before KOing Mezger and 8 months before decisioning Dan Henderson, that's your prerogative. You're only making yourself look foolish in the process. I'll agree with you that Tito was one of the weakest LHW champs out of those that had a reasonably long reign, but the truth is that prime Tito beat prime Wand. It was a close fight, but Tito had the style to beat Wand more often than not.

 

[Ohioan]

Pretty much this. I guess Tito thought a young wrestler would beat down an old wrestler, boy was he wrong.

Tito wasn't the only one who shared this opinion. I remember that right before the fight an announcer interviewed the "celebrities" on hand at the show and ALL of them picked Ortiz to win. I couldn't understand it then and still don't. Exactly HOW was Tito going to beat Randy? I KNEW Couture would win and, in fact, I've never been so certain of the outcome of a supposedly competitive fight.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Your "hmm" comment is the perfect time to point out that if Wand was significantly better in Pride, it wasn't due to some significant improvement in technique.

If you want to say that Wanderlei Silva was not in his prime 4 months before KOing Mezger and 8 months before decisioning Dan Henderson, that's your prerogative. You're only making yourself look foolish in the process.

In the eyes of anyone who is already hopelessly biased. It's not something that keeps me up.

Wand would have rightly been a big favorite over Tito if they'd fought in his prime.

 

[KAYFABE]

Historically, it's an important fight as well. I think it showed that Tito was never the top LHW in the world. Frank Shamrock beat him in 1999 and Randy could've cut to 205 and beaten him any time. (Randy made his UFC debut in 1997. They just didn't happen to fight until 2003.

Having said that, Tito was a top 3 LHW for quite a few years. He did beat Belfort and Wand after all.

Tito was NEVER a Top LHW. Let's be honest, the majority of the guys he fought should have been fighting at 185lbs. Has Tito ever really beaten Top 10 guy? Randy and Chuck both Dominated him.... oh I forgot, Tito beat Ken Shamrock.

 

[ScoopSubMMA]

The fight was very significant.

1. Unifying the title.
2. Removing Tito from the top of the division he had ruled for a while.
3. Solidifying Randy's comeback.

As far as beef between them I don't think there was much to it. Tito talked the typical interim belt shit....its not a real belt, he's not the real champion, etc. Randy had his usual 'whatever, we'll settle it in the cage' type of attitude. The fight went down how a lot of people expected and the rest is history.

 

[grimballer]

Tito was NEVER a Top LHW. Let's be honest, the majority of the guys he fought should have been fighting at 185lbs. Has Tito ever really beaten Top 10 guy? Randy and Chuck both Dominated him.... oh I forgot, Tito beat Ken Shamrock.

You're an idiot

Tito beat wand (all time great/pride champ), Belfort (all time great/former UFC lhw champ), forest (former UFC champ), bader (top 10 fighter)...

 

[autolycus]

In the eyes of anyone who is already hopelessly biased. It's not something that keeps me up.

Look, I like Wand. He was, however, from 2002 to 2006, just about the most overrated fighter in the world. Yes, his wins over Dan and Rampage rightly had him ranked at the top, but he also fought a lot of overmatched and/or undersized fighters. He was never an unbeatable monster. He always struggled with big strong wrestlers. Arona basically beat him twice. He never faced Lil Nog, and likely would have lost to him.

 

[Country]

[YT]KrQOF4hJXiY[/YT]

thanks for posting the video, not many guys enjoy talking like this, prefight,
if current fighters wanna make more money then the should hype their fights

 

[Jack V Savage]

Look, I like Wand. He was, however, from 2002 to 2006 he was just about the most overrated fighter in the world. Yes, his wins over Dan and Rampage rightly had him ranked at the top, but he also fought a lot of overmatched and/or undersized fighters. He was never an unbeatable monster. He always struggled with big strong wrestlers. Arona basically beat him twice. He never faced Lil Nog, and likely would have lost to him.

He was already declining when he faced Arona. But who else do you evaluate that way? He beat some elite opponents, but he also smashed some weak opponents ... so he wasn't that good? He was rightly ranked at the top, but he wasn't unbeatable (no one is, of course) ... so he sucks? Combine that with your insistence that he was in his prime when he was in his early 20s losing to an inferior opponent, and you're coming off as extremely biased here.

 

[kimura_kid]

Couture v. Tito did under 100k

In a time when there was a UFC PPV once every 3 months, and the organization and mixed martial arts itself had nowhere near the level of exposure it benefits from today.

What is your point exactly?

 

[autolycus]

He was already declining when he faced Arona. But who else do you evaluate that way? He beat some elite opponents, but he also smashed some weak opponents ... so he wasn't that good? He was rightly ranked at the top, but he wasn't unbeatable (no one is, of course) ... so he sucks? Combine that with your insistence that he was in his prime when he was in his early 20s losing to an inferior opponent, and you're coming off as extremely biased here.

Tell me, other than Frank, whom he lost to, which fighters had Tito already faced by that point that were better than the opponents Wand had faced? Wand had more experience. He was 11-2 going into the fight. Tito was 4-2. I'm pretty sure Wand was closer to his prime than Tito. There's only a year and a half difference between them anyway.

Where did I say Wand sucks? I said he was overrated. I was watching MMA back then. I remember how people saw him as a world beater, and would say how he would KO chuck and Randy easily. He was always a great fighter, but from 2002-2006 he was overrated. He spent a lot of time beating guys like Oyama, Otsuka, Tamura, etc. If not for his wins over Rampage (who I think is actually a better fighter overall) he wouldn't even be in the top ten discussion for all time LHWs.

 

[kimura_kid]

You're an idiot

Tito beat wand (all time great/pride champ), Belfort (all time great/former UFC lhw champ), forest (former UFC champ), bader (top 10 fighter)...

Agreed, in 2001 Tito was the top lhw in the world. Granted he hadn't fought Chuck by this point but at the same time those two were best bro's at this time!

 

[blah_blah619]

Randy vs Tito was HUGE for the sport. IMO they did more for the sport than Forrest/Bonnar did. The story line with Tito ducking Chuck and Randy stepping in and giving him the ass beating he did was golden. This was the first time ever I saw UFC on a major broadcasting network. They were on Best Damn Sports Show Period and both fighter were on. Tito was playing the whole, "you're old, you never beat me, I'm the champion" and Randy was playing the whole "you left to go make movies to duck Chuck and I beat the guy who you wouldn't fight so I'm the real champion". The guys on the show and the audience were eating it up. Tito at one point told Randy to bring his walking cane that he uses because he would def need it after the beating he was going to put on him. Their feud was great for the sport and really got a lot of people truly interested in MMA.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Tell me, other than Frank, whom he lost to, which fighters had Tito already faced by that point that were better than the opponents Wand had faced?

Well, first of all, it's not my claim that Tito was in his prime at that time. Second, who cares that he lost to Frank? He went almost four rounds with him. Very meaningful experience. Third, Tito had also faced Mezger twice.

Where did I say Wand sucks? I said he was overrated. I was watching MMA back then. I remember how people saw him as a world beater, and would say how he would KO chuck and Randy easily. He was always a great fighter, but from 2002-2006 he was overrated. He spent a lot of time beating guys like Oyama, Otsuka, Tamura, etc. If not for his wins over Rampage (who I think is actually a better fighter overall) he wouldn't even be in the top ten discussion for all time LHWs.

People rightly said that Wand was better than Chuck and Tito, but after Couture handled those guys pretty easily, there was a legit argument about who the top guy at the weight was. Wand/Randy was a dream fight.

 

[Calivornia]

And everyone basically thought Tito would out wrestle and GNP Randy fairly easily.

I remember not doubting that Couture would win with ease.

 

[autolycus]

Well, first of all, it's not my claim that Tito was in his prime at that time. Second, who cares that he lost to Frank? He went almost four rounds with him. Very meaningful experience. Third, Tito had also faced Mezger twice.



People rightly said that Wand was better than Chuck and Tito, but after Couture handled those guys pretty easily, there was a legit argument about who the top guy at the weight was. Wand/Randy was a dream fight.

Wand was not better than Chuck. I would have always favoured Chuck over Wand. Styles make fights. Yes, Prime Wand beat Prime Rampage, and prime Rampage beat prime Chuck. But this isn't MMAth. Wand struggled with Arona, but Chuck would likely have beaten him with relative ease. I think Chuck always matched up well with Wand. The only evidence we have is their actual fight, which Chuck won. Unfortunately they were both past their prime by then.

I'd also have favoured Randy over Wand but unfortunately we never got to see it.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Wand was not better than Chuck. I would have always favoured Chuck over Wand. Styles make fights. Yes, Prime Wand beat Prime Rampage, and prime Rampage beat prime Chuck. But this isn't MMAth. Wand struggled with Arona, but Chuck would likely have beaten him with relative ease. I think Chuck always matched up well with Wand. The only evidence we have is their actual fight, which Chuck won. Unfortunately they were both past their prime by then.

Wand struggled with Arona but he was past his prime. And Arona would have beaten any version of Chuck.

 

[Ez Eric]

Wand was not better than Chuck. I would have always favoured Chuck over Wand. Styles make fights. Yes, Prime Wand beat Prime Rampage, and prime Rampage beat prime Chuck. But this isn't MMAth. Wand struggled with Arona, but Chuck would likely have beaten him with relative ease. I think Chuck always matched up well with Wand. The only evidence we have is their actual fight, which Chuck won. Unfortunately they were both past their prime by then.

I'd also have favoured Randy over Wand but unfortunately we never got to see it.

For about a year or two, around 2002 and 2003, right after Randy beat both Chuck and Tito, I would have to say Randy and Wand were the undisputed top two LHW's in the world. I was always a huge Wand fan but Randy was looking so unstoppable at that time.

However, after Wand beat Yoshida and Rampage in the same night and knocked Rampage out cold in the rematch, he became the undisputed #1. Sure, Randy fought completely different than Rampage. He had a dirty boxing style that may or may not have been effective against Wand's knees and punches in the clinch. Wand was just so fast back then. The only result I could see is Wand catching Randy at some point in the fight and finishing him.

 

[Morning Star]

Wand struggled with Arona but he was past his prime. And Arona would have beaten any version of Chuck.

Yeah the guy with the best TDD at LHW who feasted on grapplers definitely would have lost to a grappler that posed little threat in the striking department