Hot Take How much more proof do you need?

[BowserJr]

Many of the ranked fighters today do not have a particularly strong background in another sport.

A lot of ranked fighters and even a few champions never did a martial art before MMA, and plenty more don't have a serious credential that infers any form of mastery in their first martial art.

And a decent amount, if not most fighters who started with another martial art probably did so because either they did not have an MMA gym when growing up, or because MMA gyms in general are not geared toward younger people or hobbiest. It has little to do with a conscious decision of trying to become the best fighter.



If anything, people 20 years ago said things like "you have" to go from a singular martial art first. This sounds like a traditionalist way of thinking, there is really no reason why someone could not be a great fighter training in MMA from the ground up. Fighting is too diverse for someone's base to affect them that much.

I disagree. Guys who started in MMA being ranked today is a product of most guys starting MMA.
Whenever there is someone who is elite at 1 thing and decent at a 2nd thing they standout. (IE. Khabib, Islam, Poatan, Gane, Borz) Almost all the very best in every era are exceptional at, at least 1. Then there are those who are elite at 2 or 3.

Right now .ost guys are mediocre at everything.

The caveat is there are some who are not seemingly elite at 1 particular thing but they have exceptional fight IQ, footwork, etc... those guys rise too but there is less of them and they are a tier below the ones who are elite at 1 or 2 disciplines

 

[Here's Johnny!]

Remember when people used to think Derrick Lewis and Ngannou were basically the same? And they would cite that if Ngannou is a top 5 HW that must mean the current crop are terrible. That looks pretty stupid now.

I honestly dont think Francis is much more skilled than Derrick Lewis... simply a better athlete... Francis has horrible striking technique and garbage wrestling technique.... hes literally just big and explosive with more than 5 minutes of cardio....

 

[Dr. Rose]

so this proves that Ngannou did have a point, when he was demanding more money. Cause there are few of active mma heavyweights, who can carry the division at the highest level

That may also include himself though, wasn't his top billing (against Stipe) like 350,000? That is no way near the top selling ppv numbers for the UFC

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I disagree. Guys who started in MMA being ranked today is a product of most guys starting MMA.
Whenever there is someone who is elite at 1 thing and decent at a 2nd thing they standout. (IE. Khabib, Islam, Poatan, Gane, Borz) Almost all the very best in every era are exceptional at, at least 1. Then there are those who are elite at 2 or 3.

Right now .ost guys are mediocre at everything.

The caveat is there are some who are not seemingly elite at 1 particular thing but they have exceptional fight IQ, footwork, etc... those guys rise too but there is less of them and they are a tier below the ones who are elite at 1 or 2 disciplines

I dont know how anyone can say Volkinaski is on a tier below the elite of someone who is a specialist in one discipline. Joshua Van and most of the best flyweights started either with MMA or didn't do much in their initial sport before cross training and becoming extremely well rounded (Kyoji Horiguchi comes to mind, as a karate fighter who branched out before becoming specialized).

Probably half of the top ten at Bantamweight is like that also, and it's the deepest division in MMA. Featherweight is pretty similar. You'd have to combine every base to get a higher number than those that started with MMA, which is basically MMA vs The Field not MMA vs BJJ or MMA vs Muay Thai.


You're basically saying most of the best fighters in the world are mediocre fighters.

 

[SSgt Dickweed]

Waldo Acosta is top 5 HW.

He barely scraped by super old super shop worn Arlovski.

You morons who claim the newer generation is always better are hilarious.

What do you think a peak Arlovski would've done to where's Waldo?

If you think Gane, Tom or any other current HW would come close to being top 3 (much less Waldo a top 5) at any time from 2003-2015, I want what your smoking.

Werdum, Cain, JDS, Barnett, Carwin, Brock, Fedor, Nog, Crocop, Tim, Arlovski, Reem all destroy today's HW with ease.

Heck even Rothwell, Nelson, Big Cat, Crazy Horse or Gonzaga would be top 3 today

I have a theory about the current state of MMA.

15-20 years ago, the top guys were dudes who grew up wanting to be Bruce Lee/Van Damme/name your MA hero. That or guys who were in the amateur circuit for wrestling or judo or some other martial art. They would do MMA regardless if they made money or not, just so happened that promotions and sponsors were willing to pay them for fighting. When it became apparent you could make money in MMA when the UFC made it big, guys would specifically train to land a spot in the UFC or other promotions. That's why this current crop seems not as good as 15-20 years ago.

WME-TKO also turned the competitive structure of the UFC to shit, it became all about clicks or views, not actual merit. But all sports have this problem, just not MMA. The heavyweight division is the guiltiest of all weight classes because you got guys who'd rather play Football or Basketball or Rugby but couldn't cut it, so they went into MMA.

 

[BowserJr]

I dont know how anyone can say Volkinaski is on a tier below the elite of someone who is a specialist in one discipline. Joshua Van and most of the best flyweights started either with MMA or didn't do much in their initial sport before cross training and becoming extremely well rounded (Kyoji Horiguchi comes to mind, as a karate fighter who branched out before becoming specialized).

Probably half of the top ten at Bantamweight is like that also, and it's the deepest division in MMA. Featherweight is pretty similar. You'd have to combine every base to get a higher number than those that started with MMA, which is basically MMA vs The Field not MMA vs BJJ or MMA vs Muay Thai.


You're basically saying most of the best fighters in the world are mediocre fighters.

Volk is in that category of fighters who is not elite per say at any one particular discipline but he is extraordinarily good at foot work and fight IQ. That is even rarer than the likes of MM, GSP, JBJ, BJ, Fedor who are elite at more than 1 discipline. All of them started with a single MA as a base/foundation.

IMO Van is not particularly elite. Fly W is shallow and has always been shallow. Van is one of my faves, cuz he is exciting and has guts but he got lucky vs Pantoja.

Here are the top BW
Yan- base/elite at boxing
Merab- base/elite at wrestling
Sandhagen- base/ elite at kickboxing
Omalley- same as sandhagen though he went to mma sooner. Maybe he fits the mma from the start category
Umar - base / elite wrestler

Off the top of my head Volk, Pantoja and Moreno (maybe Omalley) are the most notable who fit that mold of not being elite at a single discipline before going into mma. And again fly w is shallow.... and I think Volk did a lot of wrestling forst though Austin's are not known for elite wrestling.
From the past I can only think of Rory Mcdonald.

Now if you go up in weight classes like MW, LHW, HW there are more top guys currently who fit in the mold of not elite at anything/trained mma early instead of becoming elite at 1 discipline... and those weight classes are all trash

 

[BowserJr]

I have a theory about the current state of MMA.

15-20 years ago, the top guys were dudes who grew up wanting to be Bruce Lee/Van Damme/name your MA hero. That or guys who were in the amateur circuit for wrestling or judo or some other martial art. They would do MMA regardless if they made money or not, just so happened that promotions and sponsors were willing to pay them for fighting. When it became apparent you could make money in MMA when the UFC made it big, guys would specifically train to land a spot in the UFC or other promotions. That's why this current crop seems not as good as 15-20 years ago.

WME-TKO also turned the competitive structure of the UFC to shit, it became all about clicks or views, not actual merit. But all sports have this problem, just not MMA. The heavyweight division is the guiltiest of all weight classes because you got guys who'd rather play Football or Basketball or Rugby but couldn't cut it, so they went into MMA.

I agree with your theory mostly. Not sure about them being Bruce Lee fans or whatever but for sure many more from those past eras would just fight regardless of pay. They just wanted to do it and pay was a plus.

And for sure the current biz model is to blame in large part. I just don't know about the failed big athlete part.

In the past the HW were much better had more skill anywhere overall. Now that there is money in it big guys that want to fight have a place to go. I look at things like wrestling and in the past there was nothing but UFC for guys like Randy, hendo, etc... and that was new. I don't get why more wrestlers done come to ufc anymore now that there is more money.

To add to your theory I'd say that the money and perceived opportunity cost of losing is a major deterrent for taking risks to win. Its more about fighting not to lose now. Its like a problem with the culture in fighting (in large part due to the biz model).

Ironically taking risks is exciting and can get you places if your an exciting fighter. The problem it also takes away some of your leverage if you have losses.... unless your a fake bad blood guy that gets casuals to watch.

Now that I think about it, its like the guys who are fighting for money rather than glory are low risk takers who reduce action. The guys who love to fight will take risks but unless they trash talk they wont get title shots due to losses. Meanwhile the non-risk takers have a long road to a TS unless they are trash talkers.

The result is boring fighters who show little skill/offensive technique but trash talk move up in rank. Fighters who take risks and talk trash move up too but since they have losses it seems undeserved especially if there are other fighters with losses who show better technique/skill but don't trash talk who are lower in rank.

 

[BowserJr]

Some examples to my last point

Tuivasa stays with 6 straight losses cuz he is a exciting while Jailton gets cut cuz he is boring (despite the only high level grappler HW). Being boring and taking losses is the worst case for a fighter. Even if youre skilled

Colby is boring but talks trash so he gets unlimited TS

Aldo was exciting but no trash talking. Could not get an immediate rematch despite long reign cuz Conor was exciting and talks trash.

Machida was highly skilled but seen as boring and didnt say much. Long time for a TS. Perriera gets fast tracked cuz he's exciting (no trash talk but narrative with Izzy who is a trash talker)

Merab - boring. Took forever to get a shot. Sandhagen too (2nd TS) once his style got a little boring. Meanwhile Omalley gets undeserved shots and easy defense vs Vera

There are tons more examples but this is starting to get long lol

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

Waldo Acosta is top 5 HW.

He barely scraped by super old super shop worn Arlovski.

You morons who claim the newer generation is always better are hilarious.

What do you think a peak Arlovski would've done to where's Waldo?

If you think Gane, Tom or any other current HW would come close to being top 3 (much less Waldo a top 5) at any time from 2003-2015, I want what your smoking.

Werdum, Cain, JDS, Barnett, Carwin, Brock, Fedor, Nog, Crocop, Tim, Arlovski, Reem all destroy today's HW with ease.

Heck even Rothwell, Nelson, Big Cat, Crazy Horse or Gonzaga would be top 3 today

You forgot yo mention Mir and overeem

 

[JoeRowe]

Arlovski also got a gift decision vs Jake Collier, settle down bro.

Waldo was green and had very few fights when he fought AA. Sometimes, fighters get better. Wild concept to some apparently.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

i think PFL has a stronger HW roster at this point