Social How many times has socialism failed?

[Jack Stevonovich]

china isn't communism or socialism it is despotism with a capitalist economy. It is a new emerging form of capitalism.

 

[Madmick]

china isn't communism or socialism it is despotism with a capitalist economy. It is a new emerging form of capitalism.

They're communist, bud. Communism is a form of socialism.

This isn't a matter of contention. It's fact.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

They're communist, bud. Communism is a form of socialism.

This isn't a matter of contention. It's fact.

It is rather unfortunate that when people think communism that they think of China and that china appropriated Marxist rhetoric. While China is clearly a Despotic powerhouse with a capitalist economy.

Capitalism is evolving and the new versions of it have done away with democracy.

It is quite scary really.

Asian values are not really democratic. Democracy is a western thing.

I think you will find most socialists value democracy as socialist values are more akin to democratic values than they are Asian values while capitalism is much more adaptable.

 

[Madmick]

It's mere education.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#People's_Republic_of_China_(1949–present)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Communism comes after democracy you can't really skip it.

 

[HomeCheese]

And has it ever succeeded on a large scale? I only ever here of it failing and I can't find a clear number of how many have failed throughout history I know of Venezuela and Cuba I think started off as socialist before they became communist

Would you consider Germany and Norway socialists? Germany has the shortest work week in Europe and the highest worker productivity and a wonderful social safety network. Norway is doing pretty well also.

How about Costa Rica? I think they have something like a 98% literacy rate with a decent healthcare system and no army.

How about this question: Has an empire ever succeeded or do they all crumble over time?

 

[Deleted member 457759]

They're communist, bud. Communism is a form of socialism.

This isn't a matter of contention. It's fact.

China by some metrics was and still may be the most capitalist country in the world.

Free market, little regulation, and a fuck ton of new millionaires. I believe in the last decade they created more millionaires than America. Nobody can hold a candle to Chinas upward mobility in some passed years.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/06/30/us-could-remove-troops-from-germany/amp/

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-went-from-communist-to-capitalist-2015-10

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-communist-but-its-people-embrace-capitalism/

 

[Deleted member 457759]

Would you consider Germany and Norway socialists? Germany has the shortest work week in Europe and the highest worker productivity and a wonderful social safety network. Norway is doing pretty well also.

How about Costa Rica? I think they have something like a 98% literacy rate with a decent healthcare system and no army.

How about this question: Has an empire ever succeeded or do they all crumble over time?

They all crumble. I don't think large geographical states compliment human DNA very well. We're meant to form culture and values in smaller groups.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

"Socialism has completely failed"...says increasingly nervous man living in a crony capitalist oligarchy which ranks much lower on nearly every index than countries which utilize socialism.

 

[Roaming East]

Communism comes after democracy you can't really skip it.

thats a pretty shitty tech tree.

 

[nhbfan8080]

....................
We already know that any model will optimally be a hybrid of both. We also know that all the most optimal models use a free market, and are therefore capitalist, as their basis. The less free that foundation becomes the more tenuous with each revision; quite similar to abridged freedoms of the individual. People can't be free to go wherever they want, do whatever they want, own whatever they want...but the closer you stay to that while sensibly addressing the most problematic freedoms harming and threatening the greater good of other free individuals the better.

Capitalism works. Socialism doesn't. We've had 100 years of data, now, and those results are as clear as the Chinese day isn't.

I think state corporatism can also be argued to be a socialist thing, and Nordic countries are models of the welfare state as well. Simply saying capitalism works doesn't make sense at this point after the most devastating economic crash caused by leaving the financial sector to do its free wheeling capitalist thing. And that is on top of the stagnant wages and shrinking middle class in western countries after decades of free market economic reforms.

Dozens. From the USSR (go ahead and count all the nations that splintered off it) to East Germany to Cambodia to Venezuela to Ethiopia to the Congo to Somalia to Zimbabwe to Argentina. The list goes on and on. Essentially everywhere it has ever been tried. It's not a redneck exaggeration.

Then there are the states that survive if you want to consider that a success: North Korea and Cuba come to mind. ............
When people are trying to cross hundreds of miles of open sea on an inflatable inner tube just for the chance to be an illegal immigrant (or claim asylum)...I think you can tell how well things are really going.

Take a look at Vietnam. They have maintained their hard-nosed communist defiance. The enjoy a glorious 159th ...................
Remember Gaddafi in Libya? He was a socialist. Things are going great over there, I hear.
..........

The USSR did fine considering that they managed to help win WW2 in a major way by managing to turn the economy around from a largely poor agrarian society. And Russia today is still wealthier than countries in Latin America which are alot more capitalist because of American influence for the past century.
North Korea and Cuba were always under economic embargo or sanctions which limited their potential as China was until more recently. And NK was actually reasonably advanced in the 70s and competitive with South Korea when they still had the USSR as their partner for access to cheap oil and loans. Vietnam was also under a trade embargo until Clinton rescinded them. There is a common theme here - US trade embargos are very bad for the economy unless you have a big brother like the USSR to absorb your exports, give you loans when the world bank won't etc.

Gaddafi's Libya was actually doing quite well up till the 1980s and still did better than most developing countries up till the coup and the it was still one of the more advanced Arab countries together with Iraq which then used to be the destination for more advanced medical specialist training. It could be argued that his non-stop wars from the 1960s and increasing authoritarianism caused a brain drain which depressed the economy.

How has the free market flat tax worked out for Iraq and Afghanistan after over a decade and a half?

 

[AboFatima]

Sweeden, Denmark, and Norway are socialist countries and they are more successfull than many couteries. They are different between sovietism, communism and socialism.

N.B there is no country in the world is pure solicit, neither pure capitalist. even the USA is not a pure capitalist country. all the countries in the world are mixed between the two theories.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

What always bewilders me is that far right wingers tend to completely miss that socialism is born out of Christian values and is the externalization of those values into a non religious system that executes them.

I really can't grasp how one can truly be Christian and not be a socialist.

 

[Thames]

Sweeden, Denmark, and Norway are socialist countries and they are more successfull than many couteries. They are different between sovietism, communism and socialism.

N.B there is no country in the world is pure solicit, neither pure capitalist. even the USA is not a pure capitalist country. all the countries in the world are mixed between the two theories.

Those are not socialist countries. Those are capitalist countries with a market economy and everything.

I believe the reason they are often referred to as "socialist" is because of the high redistrubution of wealth. But socialist they are certainly not.

They're communist, bud. Communism is a form of socialism.

This isn't a matter of contention. It's fact.

Do you also believe North Korea to be democratic republic?

I believe it is a quite simple observation that China is communist by name only. I do not understand why you are so refusing of that argument, I assume there must be more thought behind your position? To me it seems like you are arguing that a declared intention is enough to override the material reality that intention has manifested as.