How good was/is Josh Barnett?

[Royce Greasy]

Josh Barnett was a great fighter, and was definitely better than Lesnar, though I'm not sure about Cain.

I have to say though, hyping up Mark Hunt in Pride is one of my pet peeves. The only good win Mark had in Japan was against Crocop, which was a stylistically favorable matchup for him.

Wanderlei Silva was outweighed by 80+ pounds, took the fight on a day notice, and won the fight lol. It was a not a good decision.

I gotta be honest and I know this will offend people especially on here but Cain is the single most overrated fighter in history imo, the UFC marketing machine works so hard to make people believe that he was the goat HW its fukking bullshit first off Cain beat the corpse of Nog to me that's not impressive especially after so much concussions from his years of fighting in Japan to end up getting KO'd by young Cain ridiculous, secondly he gets a big spot light on him by having the first Fox appearance of UFC for the title and get KO'd in seconds by JDS and sure he won the trilogy but still, his other big wins are Lesnar who I believe was tailor made for Cain mostly due to the wrestling aspect Cain could deal with Brock and had the striking advantage his other win was BF twice and it was enough once never needed to happen again, Werdum who was a generation before Cain absolutely dominated him everywhere until he got choked out and then his career ends with Ngannou
fighting injured.


Sorry for the large paragraph but had to get all of that at once, as for Cain's strengths and weaknesses I always thought he had poor head movement which is why he got KO'd by JDS the first time and almost KO'd by Cheick in a fight that he was lucky to get out of, he was also flat-footed a lot of the time.

His strengths were his fast and powerful punches he definitely could KO you, his wrestling was relentless often time's opponents that couldn't deal with this would look as though they were drowning and he was pretty damn good in the clinch which is why he was able to destroy JDS in the rematches.

In his time he was top 3 no doubt but no where unbeatable like many seem to think, that's a bunch of UFC hype.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

I think Josh Barnett is a very dangerous fighter. If he fought Fedor at that time he was suppose to fight him. I think he had a good chance to end Fedor streak. We would have been looking at the history of MMA differently if Barnett and Fedor actually fought. But oh well.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I gotta be honest and I know this will offend people especially on here but Cain is the single most overrated fighter in history imo, the UFC marketing machine works so hard to make people believe that he was the goat HW its fukking bullshit first off Cain beat the corpse of Nog to me that's not impressive especially after so much concussions from his years of fighting in Japan to end up getting KO'd by young Cain ridiculous, secondly he gets a big spot light on him by having the first Fox appearance of UFC for the title and get KO'd in seconds by JDS and sure he won the trilogy but still, his other big wins are Lesnar who I believe was tailor made for Cain mostly due to the wrestling aspect Cain could deal with Brock and had the striking advantage his other win was BF twice and it was enough once never needed to happen again, Werdum who was a generation before Cain absolutely dominated him everywhere until he got choked out and then his career ends with Ngannou
fighting injured.


Sorry for the large paragraph but had to get all of that at once, as for Cain's strengths and weaknesses I always thought he had poor head movement which is why he got KO'd by JDS the first time and almost KO'd by Cheick in a fight that he was lucky to get out of, he was also flat-footed a lot of the time.

His strengths were his fast and powerful punches he definitely could KO you, his wrestling was relentless often time's opponents that couldn't deal with this would look as though they were drowning and he was pretty damn good in the clinch which is why he was able to destroy JDS in the rematches.

In his time he was top 3 no doubt but no where unbeatable like many seem to think, that's a bunch of UFC hype.

I'm not sure about people still thinking Cain was unbeatable, but Werdum is probably a top ten HW of all time, why would it be shameful losing to him? Antonio Silva was a pretty good win too at that time.

Werdum and JDS would both beat Brock Lesnar also.

 

[moreorless87]

Josh Barnett's "pro wrestling" is just catch wrestling, like Sakuraba. He was barely in the wrestling industry, other than a few crossovers that Pride would have with wrestling promotions.

If anything, Josh was clearly at the top of Pride, in league with guys like Nogueria. Ken Shamrock was very different because he basically destroyed his body while in the WWE.

I think Pride was actually the period Barnett wasnt doing pro wrestling on the side, he did a bit in New Japan post UFC but stopped in 04. I spose he was dealing with the injury from the first Mirko fight then and after the rematch he kept a pretty strong schedule for the rest of Pride, I think he realised that was a point he could "make his mark" with a good amount of his legacy coming from his OWGP run in 06 with wins over Aleks, Hunt and Nog.

I think Batrnett did do a decent amount of pro wrestling post Affliction espeically but nothing like Ken's shedule in the WWF(could be 200 dates a year or something couldnt it?) which messed him up, style wise really Josh's pro wrestling seems like a mix of shoot style matchups akin to RINGs with a lot of submission chain wrestling and playing more of a "shoot specialist" character in more conventional matches.

 

[Natural Order]

He’s probably in Top 20 HWs all-time.

One of the best grappling HWs we’ve ever seen imo.

 

[skylolow]

Prime Josh was great. But by 2013ish when he came back Josh really didn't seem fully invested in MMA at that time.

 

[Royce Greasy]

I'm not sure about people still thinking Cain was unbeatable, but Werdum is probably a top ten HW of all time, why would it be shameful losing to him? Antonio Silva was a pretty good win too at that time.

Werdum and JDS would both beat Brock Lesnar also.

There's nothing to be ashamed of by losing to Werdum but when people were claiming prime Cain is unstoppable and making excuses for his losses people have to take a hard look at his career.

I agree Werdum is a top ten HW of all time no question, also from that era 2010 to 2015 I think the most impressive HW as far as body of work(wins, titles etc) was JDS he had incredible wins and to me he was the best from that era even though he lost the trilogy to Cain he had so many quality wins.

 

[YSB]

He was good. I liked him. But he was one of MMA's great "what ifs." Never reached his full potential.

 

[Ibm]

Was good for his time, no way he gets by the current monsters we have.

 

[Royce Greasy]

Was good for his time, no way he gets by the current monsters we have.

LOL WOW current monsters like Blaydes, Almeida, Tuivasa or maybe Pavlovich who got gun shy against Volkov another guy who I believe lost to Tim Johnson, if you meant Aspinall well he's one guy who whether people like it or not the truth is he beat 4 top fighters so far we need to see more of him before people start claiming he's the second coming.

UFC HW division is pretty terrible and people act as though big huge HW's with skill weren't a thing before when you had guys like Semmy Schilt who was probably the best of K1, Alexander Emelianenko and Kharitonov were huge men with skills and speed please give it a rest on the whole evolution of the sport its true to a point but also its isn't possible to keep on evolving because a punch is a punch and wrestling and grappling have been known for a couple decades now and its not like fighters have found better ways to prepare when they are still taking PED's to win fight's when someone shows up and starts making exotic martial arts work then you can claim there's been an evolution until then cross training has existed since the early 2000s.

 

[KilledByDeath]

In his prime its hard to deny his skill and accomplishments, problem is many of his better wins are made controversial by peds.
His agility and durability took a hit as he started aging.
But if you were to ask the fighters they wouldnt have a second thought.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

he was a legitimate HW fighter and I would say top 4 HW of PRIDE. People always say big nog, cro cop, fedor were the big three, but Josh was right there. He got that win over big nog in the OWGP. that was a pretty big upset. Also took out Alex E, and Hunt. He was second to Cro Cop that night. Very good HW, I feel like once PRIDE was done, so was the serious MMA ambitions.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Probably because he was 35 when he came back to the UFC.

Yes. He had some decent wins in his early UFC run.

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

There's nothing to be ashamed of by losing to Werdum but when people were claiming prime Cain is unstoppable and making excuses for his losses people have to take a hard look at his career.

I agree Werdum is a top ten HW of all time no question, also from that era 2010 to 2015 I think the most impressive HW as far as body of work(wins, titles etc) was JDS he had incredible wins and to me he was the best from that era even though he lost the trilogy to Cain he had so many quality wins.

I hear what you're saying, but Cain at his best was that absolute monster. Injuries cut his time at the top short and limited his overall body of work drastically and that lack of activity dropped him out of potential GOAT talks, but in terms of pure ability wrt who could beat who in their respective primes (which will always be pure subjective bs, I acknowledge), I put him at #1. Werdum is the only fighter I would favour over him prime for prime (terrible style matchup for him). Maybe Nog too now that I think of it. Big maybe.

Good call on JDS, if a touch controversial with some folks. Cain, Mir, Stipe, Struve, Werdum, Hunt, Carwin, etc, etc, etc. He was so good at HW for so long, even after Cain nearly killed him twice, and people don't seem to want to acknowledge that. Hell, he was well past his prime and still spanked Black Beast, Rothwell, and Tuivasa with ease. His career ended poorly, but that's always the case for elite fighters. That loss to Econoreem still bugs me, though.

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

He’s probably in Top 20 HWs all-time.

One of the best grappling HWs we’ve ever seen imo.

Huh? Name 20 better HW's off the top of your head. Hell, it's tough to name 20 good HW's, period. Josh is Top 10 all day; I was gonna say maybe Top 5 I think but that's a bridge too far.

Would love to see prime Barnett against the HW's of today, as almost everyone over 205 seems to have forgotten how to grapple.

 

[Royce Greasy]

I hear what you're saying, but Cain at his best was that absolute monster. Injuries cut his time at the top short and limited his overall body of work drastically and that lack of activity dropped him out of potential GOAT talks, but in terms of pure ability wrt who could beat who in their respective primes (which will always be pure subjective bs, I acknowledge), I put him at #1. Werdum is the only fighter I would favour over him prime for prime (terrible style matchup for him). Maybe Nog too now that I think of it. Big maybe.

Good call on JDS, if a touch controversial with some folks. Cain, Mir, Stipe, Struve, Werdum, Hunt, Carwin, etc, etc, etc. He was so good at HW for so long, even after Cain nearly killed him twice, and people don't seem to want to acknowledge that. Hell, he was well past his prime and still spanked Black Beast, Rothwell, and Tuivasa with ease. His career ended poorly, but that's always the case for elite fighters. That loss to Econoreem still bugs me, though.

I can't agree with you on prime Cain being number 1# I just don't see, look at his fight with Kongo he was in his prime got dropped and stunned a few times had to take it down and won a decision this goes to what I was saying about his head movement its terrible, JDS also beat him the first time due to lack of head movement just my opinion.

 

[Khaosan]

Complete steroid cheat but one of the best HWs of all time IMO.

 

[Natural Order]

Huh? Name 20 better HW's off the top of your head. Hell, it's tough to name 20 good HW's, period. Josh is Top 10 all day; I was gonna say maybe Top 5 I think but that's a bridge too far.

Would love to see prime Barnett against the HW's of today, as almost everyone over 205 seems to have forgotten how to grapple.

10-20 range. Nothing huh about it. He’s probably in the 13-15 range.

 

[DayV]

I'd say Top 10 HW of all time.
Better resume and body of work than Cain or Mir for example.
Barnett has about 20 good wins in career, which is really a lot.
Beat Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Mir, Hunt, Kharitonov, Schilt, Alex E.;
but even his B list good wins vs guys like Hoffman, McGee, Yoshida, Yvel... are vs tough and solid fighters, who could have caused upsets and problems for good fighters.

 

[ryun253]

He did okay in Pride & UFC