How good was Fedor really? Was he truly elite?

[Doomer]

Poatan is literally fighting in UFC at its weakest ever and he is already on some list as among the best? Puffff

 

[JRY82]

He's the goat, so pretty good

 

[BrockLesnarsTurtleBack]

I'm not being dismissive. Its just that I understand the difference between beating an all time great HW when they're at their best and in their 20s and beating an all time great HW when they're 40 years old and well past their prime.

HWs aren't at their best in their 20s though. A lot of the Pride legends fell off in their early 30s as the sport around them progressed rapidly. This doesn't fit the established MMA aging curve at all.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

HWs aren't at their best in their 20s though. A lot of the Pride legends fell off in their early 30s as the sport around them progressed rapidly. This doesn't fit the established MMA aging curve at all.

Athletes are the best in their 20s. Don't fall for the UFC psyop making fanboys believe HWs are at their best in their 40s to make their washed up division look better.

 

[moreorless87]

HWs aren't at their best in their 20s though. A lot of the Pride legends fell off in their early 30s as the sport around them progressed rapidly. This doesn't fit the established MMA aging curve at all.

Interesting that people only seem to take this view with ex Pride fighters, that people like say GSP, Cain or JDS might have dropped off in their mid 30's or before seems to be accepted by only ex Pride guys either got "out evolved" or "depended on PEDS".

I would argue HW in the mid/late 2010's tended to have a lot of older fighters(maybe of them ex Pride fighters) because it was actually a division in decline and it was possible for decaling big names to remain competitive as the standard dropped.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Interesting that people only seem to take this view with ex Pride fighters, that people like say GSP, Cain or JDS might have dropped off in their mid 30's or before seems to be accepted by only ex Pride guys either got "out evolved" or "depended on PEDS".

I would argue HW in the mid/late 2010's tended to have a lot of older fighters(maybe of them ex Pride fighters) because it was actually a division in decline and it was possible for decaling big names to remain competitive as the standard dropped.

Only a UFC stan fan boy would be dumb enough to get pysopped into thinking that world class athletes aren't at their best in their 20s. Anything to keep the shill campaign going I suppose.

 

[moreorless87]

Only a UFC stan fan boy would be dumb enough to get pysopped into thinking that world class athletes aren't at their best in their 20s. Anything to keep the shill campaign going I suppose.

The ironic thing of course is that Pride fighters who declined at that age have claimes it was down to a "lack of PEDs" yet I would argue argue "well preserved" fighters tend to have a VERY dodgy record when it comes to PEDs.

Fedor never caught on anything were as Randy, Hendo, Vitor, Reem, Werdum, Anderson, etc all either on TRT or failed tests(or both).

Personally I always suspected that PED use was far heavier on the US MMA scene than elsewere, you had some fighters(again mostly americans) who looked very heavy roided in Pride but my guess is actually its the post Pride pre USADA era were PED use was heaviest as more fighters moved to the US.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

The ironic thing of course is that Pride fighters who declined at that age have claimes it was down to a "lack of PEDs" yet I would argue argue "well preserved" fighters tend to have a VERY dodgy record when it comes to PEDs.

Fedor never caught on anything were as Randy, Hendo, Vitor, Reem, Werdum, Anderson, etc all either on TRT or failed tests(or both).

Personally I always suspected that PED use was far heavier on the US MMA scene than elsewere, you had some fighters(again mostly americans) who looked very heavy roided in Pride but my guess is actually its the post Pride pre USADA era were PED use was heaviest as more fighters moved to the US.

Heath Herring had a good take on it in an interview. He said if you were fighting in Japan in a tournament and had to fight multiple times in one night and injured your knee earlier in the night Pride would allow for a doctor to shoot your knee up with cortisone which would allow you to continue fighting in the tournament. Today that would be deemed as a banned substance.

This means that there are levels to PEDs and not everyone who took something is automatically Ubereem. You have guys who will shoot their knee up with cortisone to get through an injury in a tournament but that doesn't mean that they're a Jon Jones/ Ubereem/ TRT Vitor style CHEMIST.

So when it comes to Pride guys like Fedor I'm sure they may have taken the cortisone route or something else to recover from an injury but I don't think Fedor was ever a chemist who abused roids- esp with the limited options and finances he had in those days. He didn't have the resources to get the same science as a prime Ubereem or Vitor.

Fedors body never changed drastically over the years like Ubereems and Vitors and he declined in his early 30s which tells me he wasn't a chemist like them. There is no evidence or eye test that would make you think Fedor was a steroid abuser and chemist. What Herring was describing and what Ubereem/ Jones/ Vitor were at their juicing peak are completely opposite sides of the steroid spectrum.

Too many people think it's black and white but there are levels to this juicing shit.

 

[MMAK]

How good was Fedor?

I have a hard time genuinely believing that Fedor is truly elite and up there with goats such as

GSP
Anderson
MM
Jones
DC

Fedors record was too padded he fought in such a different weak era and when Fedor came up against semi modern MMA fighters he got beaten badly and could not hang

Some say that he could not hang because of his age. I do not believe this one bit. The real issue was he came up against modern MMA fighters. Isn't is such a coincidence he only started to lose once he faced true elite HWs and all of a sudden he was "out of his prime."

Anderson wrecked Hendo, Fedor a HW got wrecked by Hendo.

Werdum stopped Fedor

And I believe prime Fedor would lose to

Poatan
Anderson
Cain
DC
Aspinal
Gane
Nganu
Black Beast
Jones
Overseen


Fedor has such a padded record and had huge holes in his game

Fedor had poor Boxing, poor fight IQ, poor bottom game. Jones would take him down and elbow him to oblivion.

Fedor was a good fighter but should not be compared to the true elite.

Fedor's myth is more folk lore and myth. His best wins are Cro cop and Nog. Cro cop and nog are good but have glaring holes in their game.

Prime Fedor would probably lose to JDS as well and possibly to Lesnar, Carwin and even prime Mir (Mir had even worse chin than old Fedor when he faced him).

 

[MMAK]

Fedor was skilled, obviously, but his physical gifts were off the charts.
His speed, timing and balance were incredible... to this day, maybe the best we've seen at heavyweight.
His technique wasn't perfect, but it didn't need to be. Especially back then.
Out-struck prime Cro Cop, out-grappled prime Nog... Fucking LEGEND.

Bow down

View attachment 1040389

Crocop struggled with Fedor because Fedor had faster hands than him.

 

[MMAK]

7-0 against UFC HW champs. Come on. Of course he's elite. Best ever? It's hard to say that. Ain't a pony can't be rode, ain't a cowboy can't be throwed.
It's a high stake game of inches. He got clipped a few times, it's bound to happen with that style where you wade in, and it's MMA. In boxing you have a few undefeated champions, but you have time to recover after a knockdown, a luxury not granted in MMA. The only high level HW boxer I know of that was never dropped is George Chuvalo, but he was still TKOd two or three times. Ali, Lewis, Louis, Foreman, Marciano, Tyson, Frasier, Fury, all have been dropped multiple times. If that were MMA, you get jumped on and pounded, probably out. So losses in MMA are more forgivable. Shit happens. It doesn't take away from greatness.

As far as the greatest of all time? That's something that exists only in the mind of fans. We idolize, because if another mere man can be seemingly immortal, then maybe we can too.

But at the end of the day, Fedor is just another person, with the same Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Carbon molecules making up his body as mine, yours, and the thread starter's. Nothing too special at the end of the day, just a monkey that learned to talk, do a couple judo throws, and wing a couple punches.

Vitali Klitschko was never dropped.

 

[fedorthegoat777]

Fedor was the greatest HW of all time.

Unless you are Dana White or a Sherdog troll.

 

[Leon Edwards]

He's the goat, so pretty good

The goat of padded records

 

[BowserJr]

How good was Fedor?

I have a hard time genuinely believing that Fedor is truly elite and up there with goats such as

GSP
Anderson
MM
Jones
DC

Fedors record was too padded he fought in such a different weak era and when Fedor came up against semi modern MMA fighters he got beaten badly and could not hang

Some say that he could not hang because of his age. I do not believe this one bit. The real issue was he came up against modern MMA fighters. Isn't is such a coincidence he only started to lose once he faced true elite HWs and all of a sudden he was "out of his prime."

Anderson wrecked Hendo, Fedor a HW got wrecked by Hendo.

Werdum stopped Fedor

And I believe prime Fedor would lose to

Poatan
Anderson
Cain
DC
Aspinal
Gane
Nganu
Black Beast
Jones
Overseen


Fedor has such a padded record and had huge holes in his game

Fedor had poor Boxing, poor fight IQ, poor bottom game. Jones would take him down and elbow him to oblivion.

Fedor was a good fighter but should not be compared to the true elite.

Fedor's myth is more folk lore and myth. His best wins are Cro cop and Nog. Cro cop and nog are good but have glaring holes in their game.

Yawn.... trolls must be bored today.

He has more top 10 wins than everyone except maybe Jones who is tied with him and Fedor was undersized fighting in a division where everyone has death touch. The division Jones ducked till it became a graveyard. I actually prefer seeing fighters get some easy fights in between tather than sitting out for years at a time. It's simply more impressive to be that active and win for so long

I doubted fedor until he destroyed Tim and AA. He beat everyone of his contemporaries except Barnett and Randy who he never fought

crocop and nog were perennial #2 and 3. AA and Tim were 1 and 2 in UFC during the same era. AA literally slapped Werdum silly. Mir was #1 in UFC for a hot second then got injured but came back and did well only to get murked by old fedor.

So Fedor beat Nog, Crocop, AA, Tim, Mir. The absolute best longest lasting top guys from his era.

Barnett couldn't beat CC and tied with Nog. He also beat Mir, AA, Randy. Maybe he'd be the toughest test of that era. Randy would get wrecked

The other top 10s of that period came and went to quickly (ie. Rizzo, Ricco, Schilt, Herring)

That was the most stacked HW division except maybe 2009ish-2015ish in which many of these guys were old but still top 10. Goes to show how good these HW were when they could still be top 10 for over a decade. Meanwhile the succeeding era top 10 only lasted for about years. Only Reem and Werdum lasted a little longer than that

 

[Tornikidou]

Is he better than the elite guys like Jones, Francis, Cain, DC, Aspinall..? Maybe, maybe not. But the guy was a tuff undersized mofo and had the skills to back it up, best of his era by far.

 

[chinarice]

Better than Leon Edwards

 

[mattemate]

Vitali Klitschko was never dropped.

Yeah but he never beat anyone that was any good either, did he?

 

[Tsuli]

Heath Herring had a good take on it in an interview. He said if you were fighting in Japan in a tournament and had to fight multiple times in one night and injured your knee earlier in the night Pride would allow for a doctor to shoot your knee up with cortisone which would allow you to continue fighting in the tournament. Today that would be deemed as a banned substance.

This means that there are levels to PEDs and not everyone who took something is automatically Ubereem. You have guys who will shoot their knee up with cortisone to get through an injury in a tournament but that doesn't mean that they're a Jon Jones/ Ubereem/ TRT Vitor style CHEMIST.

So when it comes to Pride guys like Fedor I'm sure they may have taken the cortisone route or something else to recover from an injury but I don't think Fedor was ever a chemist who abused roids- esp with the limited options and finances he had in those days. He didn't have the resources to get the same science as a prime Ubereem or Vitor.

Fedors body never changed drastically over the years like Ubereems and Vitors and he declined in his early 30s which tells me he wasn't a chemist like them. There is no evidence or eye test that would make you think Fedor was a steroid abuser and chemist. What Herring was describing and what Ubereem/ Jones/ Vitor were at their juicing peak are completely opposite sides of the steroid spectrum.

Too many people think it's black and white but there are levels to this juicing shit.

If you follow the prevailing narrative, you would believe that 2002-2007 Overeem was juiced to the gills but 2010- Overeem was clean as a whistle.

Are you suggesting this might not be true?

 

[MMAK]

Yeah but he never beat anyone that was any good either, did he?

He was winning on points against Lewis (although that was past the prime Lewis) before the fight was stopped. Lewis has a good claim for boxing hw goat. He probably would have won on points if they didn't stop his fight but his face would have been mutilated. Vitali has probably the best chin in the history of boxing.

 

[mattemate]

He was winning on points against Lewis (although that was past the prime Lewis) before the fight was stopped. Lewis has a good claim for boxing hw goat. He probably would have won on points if they didn't stop his fight but his face would have been mutilated. Vitali has probably the best chin in the history of boxing.

I don't know about the best chin ever. He was good at avoiding damage.
If you rewatch the Lewis fight, he may have been slightly ahead on points, but it was closer than you think. Vitali was getting fucked up. Lewis would have found that chin pretty soon, as a couple more shots to that eye would have left him blind and leaking. And it WAS Lewis's last fight.
I think he's probably the HW goat. Definitely the best of his era, and his era was definitely the strongest in HW history. The 70s was strong too. Ali was the best. But the 2nd best of the 70s (Frazier or Foreman) wasn't as good as the second best of the 90s (I'm thinking Bowe, Holyfield, or Tyson). It's all hypothetical....
Anyway, it's good to discuss it with someone that is thinking about it rationally.