How good was Fedor really? Was he truly elite?

[markg171]

Fedor beat elite K1 strikers on the feet, was on the Russian National judo team and threw up armlocks from his back like nothing and had incredible GnP and insane endurance.

Cain beat prime JDS standing, was a D1 wrestler and BJJ black belt with brutal GnP and 5 rounds of endurance.

Acting like today's version of Jones who arguably lost to Reyes or Aspinal are vastly superior and more evolved than peak Fedor and peak Cain is laughable and ridiculous.

I'd say they're all pretty equally well rounded in their own unique way. You just can't handle it. Cope.

I like the part where your fighters are magically in their mythical primes and Jon Jones isn't allowed to be as well.

It's almost like you're being disingenuous on purpose because you know it's a stupid premise.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

I like the part where your fighters are magically in their mythical primes and Jon Jones isn't allowed to be as well.

It's almost like you're being disingenuous on purpose because you know it's a stupid premise.

Jones can't be in his prime if you list him as a HW since he just started fighting at HW last year.

But even if you take Jones in his prime as a LHW there was nothing about his skillset that made him vastly more well rounded than prime Fedor and prime Cain.

They're all equally well rounded in their own unique way with minor superiority/ inferiority in specific areas.

It's not that hard.

 

[AmalgamOpus]

Nah you right, pretty mid bro. We all knew he was too afraid to face the likes of Randy Couture and Tim Sylvia.

 

[IloveTHIS]

I think a ton of people, the majority, completely ignore or are completely unaware of the fact that he DOMINATED combat sambo at the exact same time. For pretty much all his 10 years of dominance.

Being the absolute best at two combat sports at the same time....while not being obviously juiced and usually undersized.

 

[Ultrashogun]

Yes weak as hell

All of these are old school many 1 dimensional fighters. Nog was a BJJ guy with serviceable striking, Randleman was a wrestler (rip)
Heath Herring is not elite

Cc is a good win but he is far from a modern well rounded HW. He is a striker
AA is a good win


Basically out of all those fighters there are no well rounded elite HWs, the most elite is maybe Timmeh. Jones, Anderson, DC, Poatan wreck everyone.




Taking down and subbing Hunt is hardly a great achr

It was a different time. Back then fighters were primarily grapplers or strikers.

Fedor was and is the best.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

You're probably not someone who has ever trained or experienced the intensity if combat and thus you think a 40 year old with 16 losses by KO is better competition than an all time great HW in their 20s/ early 30s and at their physical peak. That's why you list Stipes wins over old ass AA as a great win but describe Rogers win over AA in his 20s as a win over a guy with a "glass jaw"

Just admit you're a biased UFC fanboy with limited or non existent real life experience.

Not a biased UFC fanboy at all. Just happen to have the ability to apply critical thinking and not look for evidence of what I want to be true and ignore all others.

I did not say Brett Rogers had a glass jaw. No idea where you got that from? I said he was a Can and had no business being in the cage with "The HW Champion of the World". Try reading a little slower and achieving a higher comprehension level.

You keep dismissing all of Stipe's opponents as Old and 40. AA was 37 when he fought Stipe and as I said before the opponents you dismissed as being an overage of 40 years old were in fact on average 35. Guess who was 40 when Fedor fought them? and 42 when they rematched? And is universally included in Fedor's resume as one of his top wins? C'mon guess!!!!

 

[dipstickjimmy]

I think a ton of people, the majority, completely ignore or are completely unaware of the fact that he DOMINATED combat sambo at the exact same time. For pretty much all his 10 years of dominance.

Being the absolute best at two combat sports at the same time....while not being obviously juiced and usually undersized.

Sambo and MMA are not exactly Boxing and Wrestling in their differences.
Goldie might even say

"Virtually Identical"

 

[JohnMandick]

He's the HW GOAT for sure, and maybe the GOAT GOAT. So pretty good.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Sambo and MMA are not exactly Boxing and Wrestling in their differences.
Goldie might even say

"Virtually Identical"

Full contact sambo is violent and high impact af. People get brutally knocked out and strangled in combat sambo and tear ligaments regularly.

Fedor fought Magomedov (Combat Sambo champ of Dagestan) and Oleinik in combat sambo in 2003- the same year he had 5 MMA fights and a championship fight in Pride against Big Nog. The fight Oleinik was bare knuckle.

7 fights in one year, including a championship fight against Big Nog.If you don't see how such a schedule would increase the chances of injuries and wear and tear I don't know what to say. Stipe never fought this kind of schedule.

And you talk about "consistency" lol Fedor had as many fights in 4 years as Stipe had in 14 years and in that span he beat the best HW in the world in his prime twice.

You give Stipe all the credit in the world for beating a washed up AA but don't give Brett Rogers any credit for knocking out AA in 20 seconds when AA was in his 20s and went on a run in the UFC later.

When Stipe beats washed up AA= great win according to you

When Rogers beats AA in his 20s= Rogers is a can who didn't belong in the ring with Fedor because AA had a glass jaw according to you and you call this critical thinking

Rogers was 10-0 with all wins by knockout and first round KO win over #2 Arlovksi. At the time no one had a problem with that fight being made.

 

[JKS]

You're saying things haven't evolved because the current champion is a guy who was an enormous evolution at the time that's literally still successful to today.

This is just so sad and beyond ridiculous.

No, you're just not understanding. I said Jones evolution has nothing do with the HW division being more evolved today compared to 2004 to 2012. It's not like Jones was a new fighter around 2020 and started to evolve with the HW division and became a top HW today. It's literlaly the opposite and his evolution came 10 years prior.

If anything, Jones easily winning shows how the HW division hasn't evolved in recent years considering a LHW who's best days of evolution came between 2011 and 2014.

You think Jones would have a better chance being a champion and defending his belt succcessfuly in todays HW division. Or the HW division in 2010 to 2014 with JDS, Cain, Overeem, Miocic, Werdum, Mir, Barnettt, Cormier??

 

[markg171]

No, you're just not understanding. I said Jones evolution has nothing do with the HW division being more evolved today compared to 2004 to 2012. It's not like Jones was a new fighter around 2020 and started to evolve with the HW division and became a top HW today. It's literlaly the opposite and his evolution came 10 years prior.

If anything, Jones easily winning shows how the HW division hasn't evolved in recent years considering a LHW who's best days of evolution came between 2011 and 2014.

You think Jones would have a better chance being a champion and defending his belt succcessfuly in todays HW division. Or the HW division in 2010 to 2014 with JDS, Cain, Overeem, Miocic, Werdum, Mir, Barnettt, Cormier??

This isn't hard mate.

Did Jon Jones represent an evolution in MMA or not? And is the current HW champion not also Jon Jones?

You're really trying to skirt around the issue that the current HW champion is a dude who can conventionally fight with the best of them while also perfectly doing shit like spinning elbows and oblique kicks instead of just spamming overhand rights cause it completely destroys your narrative.

Like I said. Sad nostalgia is sad.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

10-0 against who? He beat Arlovski in 22 seconds with AA's chin = a hard boiled egg that your mom cracked for you and put in your lunch. He beat James Thompson who people have hear of but we all know isn't very good. Who else had he fought? 8 absolute nobodies but he is fighting the "World Champion"?

You are really claiming Brett Rogers belonged in the ring with a fighter the level of Fedor? Stipe fought top level opponents his entire career and Fedor has never fougth a string of top competition and had success. That is what IMO differentiates between the two.

He was undefeated and top ten at the time and had just beaten Arlovski, who was one if the best heavyweights of all time.

You fucks are straight up disrespectful. Shame on you.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

When Rogers beats AA in his 20s= Rogers is a can who didn't belong in the ring with Fedor because AA had a glass jaw according to you and you call this critical thinking

Again you are so off I am going to put you on Ignore now.
Arlovski was not in his 20s when he fought Rogers. Staight up FACTUAL info.
Rogers is a CAN. Rogers was in 2009 a CAN. Fedor fought a green, inexperienced Rogers and he was great yet you say Stipe only beat a Green Francis??? You are just arguing for the sake of it and I am done with you.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Again you are so off I am going to put you on Ignore now.
Arlovski was not in his 20s when he fought Rogers. Staight up FACTUAL info.
Rogers is a CAN. Rogers was in 2009 a CAN. Fedor fought a green, inexperienced Rogers and he was great yet you say Stipe only beat a Green Francis??? You are just arguing for the sake of it and I am done with you.

I never claimed Francis was a can or that he didn't belong in the cage with Stipe. I just said Stipe never beat Francis in his peak form, instead he got melted by him.

You claimed Rogers was a can and didn't belong in the cage with Fedor based on how he performed AFTER the fight Fedor.

News flash:

Rogers was 10-0 with all wins by KO and a win over #2 ranked Arlovksi coming into the Fedor fight.

The matchmakers weren't sitting there saying "what if he won't perform well in the future? Maybe we shouldn't make this fight!"

That's what you're doing now- retroactively deciding that Rogers didn't earn that fight even though he did. Nerd behavior from you.

 

[BFoe]

Not a biased UFC fanboy at all. Just happen to have the ability to apply critical thinking and not look for evidence of what I want to be true and ignore all others.

I did not say Brett Rogers had a glass jaw. No idea where you got that from? I said he was a Can and had no business being in the cage with "The HW Champion of the World". Try reading a little slower and achieving a higher comprehension level.

You keep dismissing all of Stipe's opponents as Old and 40. AA was 37 when he fought Stipe and as I said before the opponents you dismissed as being an overage of 40 years old were in fact on average 35. Guess who was 40 when Fedor fought them? and 42 when they rematched? And is universally included in Fedor's resume as one of his top wins? C'mon guess!!!!

To piggyback off of what @Ludwig von Mises said, you are evaluating Roger’s with the benefit of hindsight.

Here are Sherdog’s rankings going into that fight. Brett Rogers was not only ranked, he was the highest ranked available Strikeforce heavyweight. There was nothing wrong with booking that fight with Fedor at all.

And I think it is a fair criticism of Stipe’s opponents to say most of them were well past their best when Stipe fought them. Rogers is a “can” that sparked Arlovksi in 2010, but Arlovski is supposed to be part of some fantastic win streak for Stipe in 2016? Likewise, the Overeem he fought was years removed from the 2010 version, JDS was years removed from the 2012 version, DC was almost 40 in their first fight (which DC won of course), and had already planned on retiring by their last but stuck around for the payday. These are just facts.

Stipe is a badass and I’m a fan, but these are just facts.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

He was undefeated and top ten at the time and had just beaten Arlovski, who was one if the best heavyweights of all time.

You fucks are straight up disrespectful. Shame on you.

He is a straight up CAN. 10-0 but literally the only single ranked fighter he went against was AA. Him shooting up into the top 10 is ludicrious. He had never faced anyone of any note prior to Arlovski. He also never beat a single ranked fighter after AA. Losing to Fedor, Overeem, Barnett, Eddie Sanchez, Volkov, De Fries.

Removing Arlovski from his record his best wins are Josh Thompson career 20-17 record & Kawaguchi 18-12 career record. Nobody else he beat even rates having a wiki page FFS.

Wins over:
Stan Strong 0-1 career record
Chris Clark 7-30 career record
Brian Heden 31-17 career record
Mark Racine 0-3 career record
Josh Melichar 5-1 career record
Ralph Kelly 5-10 career record
James Thompson 20-17 career record
Jon Murphy 6-4 career record
Ron Humphrey 7-3 career record

He was brought in to give Arlovski and easy win and lo and behold he gets a flukey win. What do they do? Rush him in to the cage with Fedor!!! He is an undefeated killer!!!!

Rogers is a CAN and that isn't disrespect it is just the truth.

 

[LampShade94]

Majority of the noobie crowd on here is incapable of rating talent at the time the fights occurred. Therefore they de-value majority of his wins. Fedor cleaned out the HW division for years. Guys like CroCop were absolute killers while in their prime.

 

[BFoe]

He is a straight up CAN. 10-0 but literally the only single ranked fighter he went against was AA. Him shooting up into the top 10 is ludicrious. He had never faced anyone of any note prior to Arlovski. He also never beat a single ranked fighter after AA. Losing to Fedor, Overeem, Barnett, Eddie Sanchez, Volkov, De Fries.

Removing Arlovski from his record his best wins are Josh Thompson career 20-17 record & Kawaguchi 18-12 career record. Nobody else he beat even rates having a wiki page FFS.

Wins over:
Stan Strong 0-1 career record
Chris Clark 7-30 career record
Brian Heden 31-17 career record
Mark Racine 0-3 career record
Josh Melichar 5-1 career record
Ralph Kelly 5-10 career record
James Thompson 20-17 career record
Jon Murphy 6-4 career record
Ron Humphrey 7-3 career record

He was brought in to give Arlovski and easy win and lo and behold he gets a flukey win. What do they do? Rush him in to the cage with Fedor!!! He is an undefeated killer!!!!

Rogers is a CAN and that isn't disrespect it is just the truth.

Why is Rogers being ranked ludicrous? Pretty sure Poatan was ranked after he beat Strickland. Max just got ranked at 155 after beating no one but Gaethje.
Shane Carwin wasn’t even in the Top 25 at the start of 2009, but was ranked in the Top 10 after beating nobody worthwhile but Gonzaga.

That’s kind of just how rankings work, man.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

To piggyback off of what @Ludwig von Mises said, you are evaluating Roger’s with the benefit of hindsight.

Here are Sherdog’s rankings going into that fight. Brett Rogers was not only ranked, he was the highest ranked available Strikeforce heavyweight. There was nothing wrong with booking that fight with Fedor at all.

And I think it is a fair criticism of Stipe’s opponents to say most of them were well past their best when Stipe fought them. Rogers is a “can” that sparked Arlovksi in 2010, but Arlovski is supposed to be part of some fantastic win streak for Stipe in 2016? Likewise, the Overeem he fought was years removed from the 2010 version, JDS was years removed from the 2012 version, DC was almost 40 in their first fight (which DC won of course), and had already planned on retiring by their last but stuck around for the payday. These are just facts.

Stipe is a badass and I’m a fan, but these are just facts.

Rogers is and was a CAN. He had one ranked win with the other 9 being Journeyman Josh Thompson and 8 guys that were barely better than a Sherdogger. That elevates you to fighting the BEST in the World?

Again picking Arlovski out of Stipe's resume and arguing single points of time and single fights is an exercise in futility. For every SINGLE pro on either fighters resume there can be a con pointed out. Jumping around from point to point is insanity.

False Premise:
Stipe got KO'd by Struve. Fedor got KO'd by a MW Dan Henderson. Stipe was also poked in the eye right before the KO. Same with DC btw.


False Premise: Prime for a HW is in the 20's. HWs peak in their 30's with a combination of experience and athletic ability. Stipe's win over Francis is discounted because he was green but Fedor's win over a much greener CAN Brett Rogers is a solid win???

Stipe's wins over AA, Overeem, Werdum, JDS are discounted because of their elderly years (average 35 at the time). Mark Coleman is universally lauded as one of Fedor's top opponents. Do you know that he was 40 & 42 when he fought Fedor.
So which is it? 35 is way past PRIME or 42 is relevant?

All of these circular arguments are crazy and most are based off of incorrect facts or simply confirmation bias.

We can't compare their 20's as Fedor was in combat sports since his childhood and Stipe didn't start until his pro career until 28. Fedor did not fight top 5 Ranked HWs consecutively until Werdum, Bigfoot & Henderson (Not a HW) and what happened?

Excuse: Fedor was old and that was after his run. But he was 33 year old. At 33 Stipe fought HUNT, AA, Werdum, Overeem, JDS & Francis in a row and finished all of them by KO/TKO except for a 5 round domination of Frank.

Fedor has no such streak. At a true CHAMPIONSHIP level Fedor never fought true #1 contender one after the other after the other. I personally value that higher then a padded record.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

He is a straight up CAN. 10-0 but literally the only single ranked fighter he went against was AA. Him shooting up into the top 10 is ludicrious. He had never faced anyone of any note prior to Arlovski. He also never beat a single ranked fighter after AA. Losing to Fedor, Overeem, Barnett, Eddie Sanchez, Volkov, De Fries.

Removing Arlovski from his record his best wins are Josh Thompson career 20-17 record & Kawaguchi 18-12 career record. Nobody else he beat even rates having a wiki page FFS.

Wins over:
Stan Strong 0-1 career record
Chris Clark 7-30 career record
Brian Heden 31-17 career record
Mark Racine 0-3 career record
Josh Melichar 5-1 career record
Ralph Kelly 5-10 career record
James Thompson 20-17 career record
Jon Murphy 6-4 career record
Ron Humphrey 7-3 career record

He was brought in to give Arlovski and easy win and lo and behold he gets a flukey win. What do they do? Rush him in to the cage with Fedor!!! He is an undefeated killer!!!!

Rogers is a CAN and that isn't disrespect it is just the truth.

You seem to have an incapability of understanding your advantage of hindsight lol
Who else was he going to beat on the regional scene at the time? Name someone that could have crossed paths with Brett Rogers that would have been a "good win" before getting into SF.

Edit: Please no novella length reply, just 2-4 names of regional heavyweights that would have been a good wins at the time.