How fat is too fat to be promoted?

[indulf]

let me start by saying that i live in a glass house, meaning i could stand to lose a good bit of weight myself.

at my first tournament, which was a poorly run sham, i rolled with a 6'3" 420lb blue belt in the final. let's call him "earth"... i had signed up as a white belt and won 2 matches.

the officials brought 2 guys over to our mat - a large, muscular, obviously athletic purple belt, and earth. apparently they had no one in their divisions so they cut them loose on the poor pesadissimo white belts. i'm a big guy myself, but earth is just huge. he rolled with the purple belt and barely beat him on points. he looked like his heart was about to explode after the match. the EMT actually watched the match closely and came to check on him afterward.

i step in to roll with him. mind you i've been training for about 3 months at this point. we grip up and i CAN NOT move him. i froze for a second, he tripped me, mounted me (!), and americana'd me. it was super quick.

since then i've seen this guy at a few more tournaments. let's just say that he has the potential to be a much better player if he would lose some weight, but that is true for many of us. hell if he lost 100lb he'd still be a big fella but imagine the added mobility he'd have! he wins a lot of matches solely based on his weight rather than technique and mobility.

should he be promoted? not my call. he competes and is consistently winning matches in his division, so why not? if he were to cut down to 215lb would he be able to compete and win in his new division? i doubt it. there are techniques he hasn't been able to hone due to his size that other guys at a lighter weight have been doing for years.

 

[HEAVY GRAPPLER]

Yes, it's the skill set.

There are exceptions (like the large gentleman pictured above,) who can move well enough to remain competetive.

For people asking if you can get held at a belt rank for being too fat, I would also say yes. I believe I progressed to blue slowly simply because I wasn't fit enough to perform all the techniques properly. During that time, I was still learning things, though. I was promoted t purple fairly quickly, probably because my fitness was catching up with my technical knowledge.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I would say if it limits you physically from doing things that are taught in class, or necessary to become a well rounded and skilled grappler, that is too fat. Also I know a lot of instructors will not promote you to higher ranks on general principle if you are really out of shape. Frankly I don't know how you can make it through the kind of training necessary to get really good, and still be obese. Maybe I'm overestimating how hard other instructors push people.

Good question Holt. I'm with you, and I don't think everything can just be dismissed at the upper weights. I mean maybe you won't be playing inverted De La Riva, but for the most part I'd say you need to be able to do most of the techniques.

 

[Discipulus]

I would say if it limits you physically from doing things that are taught in class, or necessary to become a well rounded and skilled grappler, that is too fat. Also I know a lot of instructors will not promote you to higher ranks on general principle if you are really out of shape. Frankly I don't know how you can make it through the kind of training necessary to get really good, and still be obese. Maybe I'm overestimating how hard other instructors push people.

Good question Holt. I'm with you, and I don't think everything can just be dismissed at the upper weights. I mean maybe you won't be playing inverted De La Riva, but for the most part I'd say you need to be able to do most of the techniques.

There are fat guys with great stamina, though. I'm not one of them, but the two are not mutually exclusive. See Josh Barnett vs. Daniel Cormier. Neither of those guys will be modelling underpants for Calvin Klein anytime soon.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

There are fat guys with great stamina, though. I'm not one of them, but the two are not mutually exclusive. See Josh Barnett vs. Daniel Cormier. Neither of those guys will be modelling underpants for Calvin Klein anytime soon.

Those guys are healthy and in the 230-250 range. We're talking here about someone who is 400 pounds and can't do basic submissions from the guard as a result. As I said, it becomes "too fat" when you can't do the proper techniques. That's not an issue for Barnett and Cormier. They just carry some additional bodyfat, quite common for HW's, in all sports. Plenty of of HW wrestlers have bodies like that for example, but are still elite athletes.

 

[thapa]

at my first tournament, which was a poorly run sham, i rolled with a 6'3" 420lb blue belt in the final. let's call him "earth"... i had signed up as a white belt and won 2 matches.

A 215-ish lb training partner of mine had a similar size opponent in a Rhode Island tourney. Earth2 can be the other extremely big dude.

Somehow, Earth2 and my friend ended up in a scramble after a mutual takedown (both on their sides and on the ground). My friend ended up in a very strange triangle from the back that wasn't cinched on all the way, but it still worked because the dude was so fat that his blood circulation was still pinched off. It's a weird video to watch.

I respect the fat dudes for rolling - it's one way to get skinnier, but I don't know about promotions at that level of fat. They just can't do 60 to 75% of BJJ.

 

[Gawd]

A 215-ish lb training partner of mine had a similar size opponent in a Rhode Island tourney. Earth2 can be the other extremely big dude.

Somehow, Earth2 and my friend ended up in a scramble after a mutual takedown (both on their sides and on the ground). My friend ended up in a very strange triangle from the back that wasn't cinched on all the way, but it still worked because the dude was so fat that his blood circulation was still pinched off. It's a weird video to watch.

I respect the fat dudes for rolling - it's one way to get skinnier, but I don't know about promotions at that level of fat. They just can't do 60 to 75% of BJJ.

Do post said video.

 

[redaxe]

Fuck, I cannot imagine having to fight a 420-pounder who has anywhere near purple belt level skills. The 275-300 lb purple belts are difficult enough to deal with.

I'm 6'3" 229 lbs, so I'm in the same weight class as all them if I don't cut, even though I am not a fat person.

 

[jujijimmy]

Talk about what your having for dinner just before you go for the sub, usually works.

 

[KGB256]

I think the real question is what point does being overweight impair you from having a complete game? I think the really heavyset guys can become good blue belts, maybe even purple if they are meticulous about their technique and develop a functional guard. But when I think of a brown belt, I think of someone who should be proficient in virtually every position.

 

[armtriangle]

i know a guy who got promoted to blue without subbing anyone from his back. he was just strong with a smothering top game & he outweighs everyone. he's 5'6 & around 260 lb.

I can count on one hand the guys I have subbed from my back (all white belts). I have been in the gi 5+ years, and got my purple 2 years ago. Some guys aren't guard players. I basically only go for sweeps from my back.

 

[JRal]

I also wonder if people are promoted for knowing the technique and/or using it effectively. Example: an overweight guy could tell you how to do a technique, but may be unable to pull it off themselves. Should they be promoted as fast as a guy who knows the technique and can use if in sparring, as opposed to the overweight guy who can't.

To follow your train of thought, what if a 400 lb purple belt effectively teaches correct technique, but cannot perform the moves himself? In other words, if he is a quality, dedicated teacher, does he deserve promotion even if he is limited physically? I believe such a student would deserve to be promoted over someone who lacks skill but wins tournaments because of a huge weight advantage.

Let's say a purple belt who has put in his time and has great technique suffers a permanently debilitating back injury. This person recovers enough to continue to train, but no longer can do most of the techniques at a purple belt level. Does this mean he should not be promoted?

After thinking this through, I believe technical knowledge and dedication to the sport are important factors for promotion than physical ability.

 

[Dedication]

Just because his game doesn't include an armbar from the guard doesn't necessarily mean he lacks the fundamental principles behind the technique, or the next thousand combination's to use behind it.

There is knowing Jiu-Jitsu, and there is knowing your Jiu-Jitsu to use. Not everything works, so you pick what works for you, while maintaining a rough understanding of everything as a back-up.


...I will say I do hope he is at-least able to drill and present guard-based positions, as well as speak intelligently on them. Regardless of pursuing to be an instructor or not, I believe it's important for the art to be able to express these things. But I'm not a black-belt either so my opinion is really just theoretical.

 

[TrumpetDan]

I have somebody at my school who is in the same ball park and also a purple belt. He is able to do most techniques well and specializes in the open and half guard.

He is dropping weight quickly and is a challenging roll for anybody - only in part because he is big. He knows what he is doing too. I actually enjoy rolling with him because it is very educational.

 

[thapa]

Do post said video.

Will try to get the flash drive with the videos on it back from a teammate.

I somehow bogied my copy here on the computer. It's just gone.

 

[KGB256]

I have wondered this too, so I am curious for an answer to OP's question or even someone who has seen an overweight person stay at a belt because of their weight.

I also wonder if people are promoted for knowing the technique and/or using it effectively. Example: an overweight guy could tell you how to do a technique, but may be unable to pull it off themselves. Should they be promoted as fast as a guy who knows the technique and can use if in sparring, as opposed to the overweight guy who can't.

So, basically, after learning techniques, should you have to show you can use them effectively to be promoted?


Note: I am tired and haven't read this through, most of it may be gibberish, sorry.

Yes, you need to demonstrate that you can implement the techniques you've learned. Execution and feel are a huge part of jiu-jitsu. A quadraplegic could learn the mechanics of every submission in existence...that doesn't mean he can do jiu-jitsu.

I have 2 teammates that were very heavy when they started jiu-jitsu. One was around 5'9" and ~300 lbs, the other is about 5'6" and ~275lbs. Both of them spent about 3 years at white belt. The 300lb guy became a workout warrior and lost over 100lbs, and is now a purple belt. The shorter guy is still big, but he's like a technique encyclopedia and actually has a decent guard game for such a big guy....and he's shockingly quick and agile for a guy his size.

There's also the idea that you want your advanced belts to set a good example for the newer students. So if you're a big guy, it's going to be a knock against you if you're not in decent shape, and an even bigger knock if you refuse to do warmups. You can be a big guy and be in decent shape, especially if you're also technical. Seeing the short guy roll hard for nearly an hour straight to earn his blue was a sure sign that he's in better grappling shape than you might expect. He's not going to run the Boston Marathon, but the guy can grapple for a long time.

 

[KGB256]

To follow your train of thought, what if a 400 lb purple belt effectively teaches correct technique, but cannot perform the moves himself? In other words, if he is a quality, dedicated teacher, does he deserve promotion even if he is limited physically? I believe such a student would deserve to be promoted over someone who lacks skill but wins tournaments because of a huge weight advantage.

Somebody being a great teacher shouldn't be a reason to promote them. If they lack the requisite skill for the rank, they shouldn't be promoted, period.

Let's say a purple belt who has put in his time and has great technique suffers a permanently debilitating back injury. This person recovers enough to continue to train, but no longer can do most of the techniques at a purple belt level. Does this mean he should not be promoted?

Not to brown, no. If he earned his purple before the injury, he should remain a purple.

After thinking this through, I believe technical knowledge and dedication to the sport are important factors for promotion than physical ability.

They're important, but these factors should not supercede skill. Let's be clear that black belt isn't inevitable just because you stick around long enough. If you hit a plateau and stop improving, you might never get there. Nobody wants to hear it, but that's the way it should be. Just as not every chess player becomes a Grandmaster, not everyone who trains will becomes a black belt. And that's a part of what makes it so special.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Belt Promotions can be related to tons of stuff outside of someones BJJ game - how consistently/long have they been training, are they a good member of the team (show up to promotions/social events/etc.), have they helped the Academy in other ways (business connections, setting up seminars, helping the instructors in times of need, etc.).

So sometimes someone's belt color isn't a direct representation of their skill level in the sport; we can disagree about it all we want, but many schools have people that aren't good at BJJ but train regularly and contribute to the best of their abilities, the instructors can't keep them as white/blue belts forever (especially when they are paying monthly dues for years on end).

 

[Knuckles69]

Now, out of curiosity, is there a certain point where a guy is just too damn fat to be promoted...

The answer is 402 lbs is too heavy.

 

[triangle killer]

To follow your train of thought, what if a 400 lb purple belt effectively teaches correct technique, but cannot perform the moves himself? In other words, if he is a quality, dedicated teacher, does he deserve promotion even if he is limited physically? I believe such a student would deserve to be promoted over someone who lacks skill but wins tournaments because of a huge weight advantage.

Let's say a purple belt who has put in his time and has great technique suffers a permanently debilitating back injury. This person recovers enough to continue to train, but no longer can do most of the techniques at a purple belt level. Does this mean he should not be promoted?

After thinking this through, I believe technical knowledge and dedication to the sport are important factors for promotion than physical ability.

Are you talking about Ari Bolden here?