How easily would Prime-Big Nog have submitted Francis?

[moreorless87]

You raise some interesting points. I do remember Big Nog training with the Cuban Olympic Boxing Team and Lil Nog competing in the Pan American Games in boxing. I also remember how Fedor used to train when he was still hungry. I also agree about hype jobs, but not all of the current top fighters and up and coming guys are that. I still think this is an ever evolving sport and that today's fighters are more advanced than they were 10-15-20 years ago. But there's always room for disagreement.

The ironic thing given that "evolution" pretty much always gets used as a putdown to big Pride names is that I think it is actually a bigger issue with divisions like WW and MW since the days of GSP and Anderson. They might have been ontop of their divisions latter than Fedor but those divisions were still less evolved than HW in the early/mid 00's and have advanced since whilst I think HW has declined due to a lack of new talent base.

Matt Hughes for example was like Kerr or Coleman still being ontop of the division in 2006.

 

[Draper]

Ngannou would KO any Pride fighter in the first round, ring or cage.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

The ironic thing given that "evolution" pretty much always gets used as a putdown to big Pride names is that I think it is actually a bigger issue with divisions like WW and MW since the days of GSP and Anderson. They might have been ontop of their divisions latter than Fedor but those divisions were still less evolved than HW in the early/mid 00's and have advanced since whilst I think HW has declined due to a lack of new talent base.

Matt Hughes for example was like Kerr or Coleman still being ontop of the division in 2006.

I agree that 155-170-185 has evolved more. I would disagree about heavyweight declining, though. I think Werdum of today would destroy the Werdum of 10-15 years ago. But he can't beat Stipe. Can't beat Ngannou. Goes life and death with Reem. It's a shame that Fedor lost his hunger. He should have gone to an AKA or Jackson-Wink type camp after the Werdum loss. But he was too set in his ways.

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

and I don’t mean that PTSD-bloated, zombie Big Nog that showed up to fight in the UFC you fools!

I am talking about the lean 235lb Pride-Big Nog that absorbed full power kicks from Mirko and a pile driver from 350lb juiced up Bob Sapp.

I think he would have Francis tapping within the first 2mins.

Nogs my favorite Hw and 1 of my all time favorite fighters but Francis would have been hell on wheels for the 1st 5 mins

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

25 year old Nogueira would have tripped Francis to the mat and tapped him out in 2 minutes. No question.

Semmy Schilt and his dog shit wrestling lasted 6+ mins, Francis would be able to last just on strength and TD defence alone

 

[moreorless87]

I agree that 155-170-185 has evolved more. I would disagree about heavyweight declining, though. I think Werdum of today would destroy the Werdum of 10-15 years ago. But he can't beat Stipe. Can't beat Ngannou. Goes life and death with Reem. It's a shame that Fedor lost his hunger. He should have gone to an AKA or Jackson-Wink type camp after the Werdum loss. But he was too set in his ways.

The Werdum of 10 years ago of course was not at the very top of the division but even then I think its give and take, that younger Werdum for example was I think a much more dangerous grappler with superior wrestling due to his greater agility, today he's simply too slow to get down for takedowns quickly.

Honestly I think todays Werdum fighting back then might even do worse, he's more dangerous today standing but honestly his boxing technique is still pretty questionable and I can see him standing with and getting KOed by guys like Sergei and Aleks.

Again I think the big issue is that talent has declined, HW was always most dependant on European and Brazilian talent and now the best coaches are in the US(were big men tend to be cherry picked by other sports) and less early investment in happening were seeing far less such talent come though.

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

I think prime Mir also would submit Ngannou in the first round

Mir would fold like a cheap tent, he doesnt handle pressure plus lacks offensive wrestling and the gas tank to push Francis

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

Stipe could've submitted Francis too, but typical Pride jizz fest thread after anytime a UFC HW fights so I'm hardly surprised.

Then why didnt he

 

[moreorless87]

Semmy Schilt and his dog shit wrestling lasted 6+ mins, Francis would be able to last just on strength and TD defence alone

Semmy was actually a pretty good sub grappler by that point(not his early Pancrase days) of course although I'd agree Nog wouldn't get Ngannou down as easily.

 

[Pakman]

I would say the opposite, UFC history is choc full of examples of people overrating the present with hype trains crashing and burning because its what the hype is always behind.

I think the sports not so young and quickly envolving as self serving UFC hype makes it, someone like Nog was training with Olympic level boxers for example. Now it maybe took longer to filter down to some other divisions but HW had that level of training over 15 years ago, Fedor as well was training with russian Olympic level boxing coaches.

Seriously watch Ngannou vs Stipe with an honest eye and tell me that boxing is technically better than Nog vs Sergei, swinging wild hooks and uppercuts with very little timing. Yeah no doubt Ngannou is more powerful than Nog but he wouldn't have an easy time catching him and if he doesn't fairly quickly I think that fight suggests he gasses.

Was just going to suggest people watch Big Nog vs Sergei to see how good Big Nog really is.

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

Semmy was actually a pretty good sub grappler by that point(not his early Pancrase days) of course although I'd agree Nog wouldn't get Ngannou down as easily.

He had a servicable ground game and was decent at avoiding damage but just controlling his opponents wrists and locking up a tight closed guard, the only people he was subbing wad undersized Japanese

 

[moreorless87]

He had a servicable ground game and was decent at avoiding damage but just controlling his opponents wrists and locking up a tight closed guard, the only people he was subbing wad undersized Japanese

..and oversized Gan McGee.

Honestly I think Semmy was unlucky in his style matchups as he faced a lot of guys with both wrestling and very strong sub grappling in Fedor, Nog, Sergei and Barnett. His sub grappling wasn't on their level but I think a lot of guys today would have more problems with it plus of course would be more likely to stand with him.

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

Nah, he wasn't. He had a great run in the UFC. Him beating up Randy Couture was one of his best performances.

The Heath Herring head kick was literaly the straw that broke the camels back, even though Nog won that fight and went onto to beat Big Tim (who was also on the downside of his career) he was never realy the same

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

..and oversized Gan McGee.

Honestly I think Semmy was unlucky in his style matchups as he faced a lot of guys with both wrestling and very strong sub grappling in Fedor, Nog, Sergei and Barnett.

Gan was a decent win, personaly I liked his win against Pete Williams, survived the 1st rnd the crippled him a front kick the the bread basket

 

[Squintz]

and I don’t mean that PTSD-bloated, zombie Big Nog that showed up to fight in the UFC you fools!

I am talking about the lean 235lb Pride-Big Nog that absorbed full power kicks from Mirko and a pile driver from 350lb juiced up Bob Sapp.

I think he would have Francis tapping within the first 2mins.

PTSD bloated, zombie big Nog? Nog was like 30 years old when he showed up to the UFC beat Hereing and submitted Sylvia for the interim belt. Hardly a washed up shell of himself fighter as OP is trying to suggest. As a 30-31 year old HW he should’ve been right at his prime and many could argue that he was just entering his prime.

He didn’t turn into a Zombie until Cain pushed his shit in

Then he gets KTFO by punches from Frank Mir out of all guys. I think that was Mir’s first ever finish from punches.

Big Nog is one of the most overrated HW’s of all time. Ngannou would’ve given him the worst KO of his life with 1 shot.

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

PTSD bloated, zombie big Nog? Nog was like 30 years old when he showed up to the UFC beat Hereing and submitted Sylvia for the interim belt. Hardly a washed up shell of himself fighter as OP is trying to suggest. As a 30-31 year old HW he should’ve been right at his prime and many could argue that he was just entering his prime.

He didn’t turn into a Zombie until Cain pushed his shit in

Then he gets KTFO by punches from Frank Mir out of all guys. I think that was Mir’s first ever finish from punches.

Big Nog is one of the most overrated HW’s of all time. Ngannou would’ve given him the worst KO of his life with 1 shot.

Someones whos taken as much damage as Nog literaly ages onernight, same thing happend to Chuck, world beaters to washed up over night, if you have a keen eye you could see the writing was on the wall with both of them.

 

[HUGHPHUG]

and I don’t mean that PTSD-bloated, zombie Big Nog that showed up to fight in the UFC you fools!

I am talking about the lean 235lb Pride-Big Nog that absorbed full power kicks from Mirko and a pile driver from 350lb juiced up Bob Sapp.

I think he would have Francis tapping within the first 2mins.

Fucking right man, Nog would have deliberately eaten a massive uppercut just to entice him to the ground and taken his arm, I'd go first 2 or 3 minutes as well

You think choke or arm?

 

[cut cut]

Its funny how before the fight everyone was saying that Francis is the baddest man ever and once Stipe puts on a masterclass performance, now everyone can beat Francis

 

[moreorless87]

PTSD bloated, zombie big Nog? Nog was like 30 years old when he showed up to the UFC beat Hereing and submitted Sylvia for the interim belt. Hardly a washed up shell of himself fighter as OP is trying to suggest. As a 30-31 year old HW he should’ve been right at his prime and many could argue that he was just entering his prime.

He didn’t turn into a Zombie until Cain pushed his shit in

Then he gets KTFO by punches from Frank Mir out of all guys. I think that was Mir’s first ever finish from punches.

Big Nog is one of the most overrated HW’s of all time. Ngannou would’ve given him the worst KO of his life with 1 shot.

Nog was also 35 fights into his career, a large amount of them vs elite fighters including fights like Fedor, Sapp and Crocop were he took significant damage plus was dealing with serious sight issues post 2006.

He clearly declined thoughout his UFC spell but the decline was there well before Cain, if anything sped it up I'd say taking that Heath headkick. Against Randy that wasn't classic Nog, it was old Nog depending way more on simply out chinning old Couture.

 

[Squintz]

Someones whos taken as much damage as Nog literaly ages onernight, same thing happend to Chuck, world beaters to washed up over night, if you have a keen eye you could see the writing was on the wall with both of them.

Chuck’s best UFC run began at age 34. Like I said Nog came over when he was still in his prime at age 30-31. Getting outclassed and KTFO by better fighters and blaming it on other factors is a lame excuse and cop out.