How does Ryan Hall think about BJJ?

[ChainFlow]

I also learned it the stomp/curl way from my instructor before the DVD came out. I think it was in common use at the time.

I didn't really learn the advantages of staying square until I trained with other instructors later. I was skeptical at first. But eventually I saw why the other way is still around.

Yes, I think it was a regional thing. Out of curiosity, where did you start out in BJJ? I have a pet theory that areas with a decent Judo population just kept doing the triangle the way they already had been. (also, I edited and added on to my previous post you replied to while you were replying, sorry)

 

[Balto]

Yes, I think it was a regional thing. Out of curiosity, where did you start out in BJJ? I have a pet theory that areas with a decent Judo population just kept doing the triangle the way they already had been. (also, I edited and added on to my previous post you replied to while you were replying, sorry)

I started in Pittsburgh. The instructor who showed me the stomp/curl way when I was a white belt had just moved from Philadelphia.

He was an American and was active on the East Coast Pro scene at that time while he was a purple and brown belt. That was mid 2000s. It was mainly GQ or NAGA with 8 man invitationals back then. It was the kind where they'd just stop a regular tournament in the middle of it, have the crowd make a circle on the mats, and have the invitational bracket right there in the middle of the crowd. They'd give like $500 to the winner or something like that.

 

[Balto]

One thing I will add is that another major benefit of staying square has nothing to do with finishing the triangle. It has to do with transitioning to other attacks if you can't finish the triangle.

I'm 5'10" so stomp/curl almost always is the best finish method for me. On very rare occasions I might have to do something else (mostly if the guy is huge but generally I just gave up triangles altogether in those cases). Yet I still stay square frequently enough.

This is because my Brazilian instructor (I trained with him after the American instructor who taught me stomp/curl) was huge on the omoplata. As I said I was very skeptical at first, but eventually I saw the wisdom in using the omoplata as the primary follow up to the triangle.

If I cut the angle to stomp/curl, I can't go to the omoplata easily. If I stay square, I have that transition option available at any moment. Especially as I get older, the omoplata option really saves my body from getting smashed in certain situations. Getting smashed up in the triangle was whatever when I was 20. Now I'm in my mid 30s and I need another option there.

Overall I think the triangle is much more than just a submission. It's really an entire position in itself, and like other positions, there are a variety of different approaches and options with their own strengths/weaknesses.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Stomp and curl only changes the size of your triangle if you let your foot push through your knee. But that diminishes the structural strength of the triangle. So it's a trade off there.

The tightest triangle (structurally with your bones) is the one you can lock with the least amount of angle. The size of the triangle your legs make is more or less fixed no matter which angle you are at. The natural tightness then becomes how much of your opponent you have jammed into that fixed space. Making the angle jams less of him into that same space. Therefore making the angle lessens the structural pressure on his neck.

The stomp and curl loosens your triangle somewhat. The idea is that you make up for it with strength by putting yourself in a position to use big muscles (glutes and hamstrings) to crank on it. That works well in a lot of situations. I'm about Ryan's size and use his way most of the time.

But if you're much taller, the triangle is loose even before you cut the angle. In that case if you angle to stomp and curl, it's just way too loose to make up for it with strength alone. The trick is to stay square and use the third dimension backwards to triangle your foot lower on your opponent's ribs. This makes it structurally tight even against a skinny opponent.

You said you are short so I doubt any of this applies to you. Long legs for your height or not, if your height is anything less than average, stomp and curl is almost always the way to go. Even for average height, stomp and curl works a lot of the time.

It's when you are a guy with above average height that you start to see why some other ways still persist. I mean do we really think top competitors just missed the memo on this detail that has been well known for 10+ years now? There is a good reason why people still stay square sometimes even at the highest levels.

Down here in south America, specially in Brazil, you will be surprise by the amount t of black belts who only know the traditional way, underhooking the arm is something revolutionary...I’m not joking

 

[yetanother]

It doesn’t create the same ammount of pressure and you need to be able to hug your own legs that’s not always possible if you are facing a very big guy... if understood your example correctly

I doubt you understood it.
You kind of do the thing you do with the leg with your arm in the other side so he is triangled from both sides. His head is in the crook of your elbow. It's too complex to describe in text. it's on caios paysite.
I do use both methods and even a scissoring triangle variant sometimes.

 

[asian-glow]

One thing I will add is that another major benefit of staying square has nothing to do with finishing the triangle. It has to do with transitioning to other attacks if you can't finish the triangle.

I'm 5'10" so stomp/curl almost always is the best finish method for me. On very rare occasions I might have to do something else (mostly if the guy is huge but generally I just gave up triangles altogether in those cases). Yet I still stay square frequently enough.

This is because my Brazilian instructor (I trained with him after the American instructor who taught me stomp/curl) was huge on the omoplata. As I said I was very skeptical at first, but eventually I saw the wisdom in using the omoplata as the primary follow up to the triangle.

If I cut the angle to stomp/curl, I can't go to the omoplata easily. If I stay square, I have that transition option available at any moment. Especially as I get older, the omoplata option really saves my body from getting smashed in certain situations. Getting smashed up in the triangle was whatever when I was 20. Now I'm in my mid 30s and I need another option there.

Overall I think the triangle is much more than just a submission. It's really an entire position in itself, and like other positions, there are a variety of different approaches and options with their own strengths/weaknesses.

This is interesting. For me staying squared up is death - this is where my opponent can start to stack me the easiest or lift me completely off the ground. I dont think the main utility of the triangle is even to strengthen finishing mechanics so much as it is a great way to shift more weight onto their neck and off balance them.

I'm an admitted Rafa fan boy but I also agree that the triangle is a great position. You can attack either arm for the armbar at different angles and also have the Americana option. I see it as a terminal position - maybe one of the best in bjj - so if I have it, I'm not giving it up for an omoplata where I feel his chances of escape increase. When I roll with better guys I'm immediately fishing to underhook either arm for the armbar finish (on top of trying to sweep to the top and finishing the regular triangle). This is more just a commentary on my omoplata though - I dont trust mine for anything other than a sweep.

Furthermore, I also read many years ago that Ryan doesn't even use this finishing mechanic anymore. Could be wrong but its hard for me to imagine that at least some modifications haven't been made since the DVD's release.

Nice discussions all around. I haven't trained in a while so this is keeping me engaged.

 

[Balto]

Yeah making the angle is a good defense to a lift. It is much easier to lift a square guy.

The omoplata is an even better defense to the lift though I think. So if I'm square I have that option if I think the lift is coming.

I like the omoplata a lot so that is probably why I have my preferences this way. I don't usually finish the shoulder lock from the omoplata. Instead I get a lot of armbars and the occasional wristlock. I sweep from the omoplata the vast majority of the time, but from the sweep position I try to keep the arm trapped on top and just armbar from there.

Overall sounds like you have a good gameplan from the position. There are definitely multiple valid directions to go in these situations.

 

[mataleaos]

Been doing the 90 degree thing and had no idea it came from Ryan, my first BJJ coach used to make a joke that it was a triANGLE, so you had to get the angle.

Yep. I first heard that hear and have been using it since.

"Tri-ANGLE not a tri-in-front-of-the-guy."

I do it the Ryan way where u go perpendicular - I thought you were saying Ryan's way was the old way.

I think even the square way is pretty good. I feel like every worlds has a couple guys finished this way.

The angle allows you to squeeze as long as you want...staying square your gokhn yo burn your legs out quite fast if you can’t put the guy out, also it’s way easier to defend.

I hope what I'm about to write makes sense. If there's any weakness to the 90 degree angle triangle it's that some people will use it (especially if they have no shirt or it's super sweaty) as a way to slip out. They'll accept that they'll be getting strangled tighter for a second or two in the hopes that they can force the angle farther than 90 degrees and pop it open. Ryan used to say (not sure what he says now) that it's didn't matter whether you pulled the arm across your body or not if you got that 90 degree angle. Now we're starting to see some people (ie. Tony Ferguson vs Kevin Lee or John Danaher's guys) purposely keep the arm from going across the body in order to make this escape I'm describing more difficult. The main difference is that Ferguson stayed straight on Lee but Danaher still cuts the angle, but they do not move the arm across.

 

[mataleaos]

Yes, I think it was a regional thing.

Out of sheer nerdery I wish there was someone out there that had little regional things catalogued. I remember being very surprised being from another part of the country going to the VA/MD region and hearing Ryan (and pretty much every other school in that area call the darce a brabo. I knew Ryan called it that from his dvd on them but I didn't expect to visit schools in that region and hear that term at basically every school around there. I think Andrew Smith when he posted a lapel brabo series on Sherdog recently even said he refuses to bend and call the no-gi variant anything but a brabo.

I also wonder if less regional differences are a thing now that the internet/youtube era has pushed things forward so fast on a worldwide basis.

 

[mataleaos]

This is interesting. For me staying squared up is death - this is where my opponent can start to stack me the easiest or lift me completely off the ground. I dont think the main utility of the triangle is even to strengthen finishing mechanics so much as it is a great way to shift more weight onto their neck and off balance them.

I'm an admitted Rafa fan boy but I also agree that the triangle is a great position. You can attack either arm for the armbar at different angles and also have the Americana option. I see it as a terminal position - maybe one of the best in bjj .

The funny thing is that Rafa is one of those guys that usually stays square on his triangles and rarely finishes the triangle itself. He may have changed since I stopped using his website in 2017 but in comps and in rolling he pretty much always used the triangle to stay square and finish with an armbar or sometimes a shoulder or wrist lock.

time coded

Spoiler

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Yep. I first heard that hear and have been using it since.

"Tri-ANGLE not a tri-in-front-of-the-guy."




I hope what I'm about to write makes sense. If there's any weakness to the 90 degree angle triangle it's that some people will use it (especially if they have no shirt or it's super sweaty) as a way to slip out. They'll accept that they'll be getting strangled tighter for a second or two in the hopes that they can force the angle farther than 90 degrees and pop it open. Ryan used to say (not sure what he says now) that it's didn't matter whether you pulled the arm across your body or not if you got that 90 degree angle. Now we're starting to see some people (ie. Tony Ferguson vs Kevin Lee or John Danaher's guys) purposely keep the arm from going across the body in order to make this escape I'm describing more difficult. The main difference is that Ferguson stayed straight on Lee but Danaher still cuts the angle, but they do not move the arm across.

getting the arm across is irrelevant to finish the choke if you have gotten the 90° angle, the thing is, unless you have long legs, like really long lengs, if you have average for example, its quite difficult to lock it up if the person is really big. Also, for sd purposes, getting the arm across is a good habit to make, you cannot get bitten out of desperation, and the triangle is about the safest sub to go in a SD situation. So I explain to my students what does the arm across is for, when is a must and when is not.

AS you said, some people like to keep the arm going across because there are a couple of escapes that can be done with the arm all the way across, but those dont really work if you have gotten the angle before they start doing the escapes... may be escaping through the back door can be done in the process of locking it up, but onces is locked, that option goes out of the window...

 

[mataleaos]

getting the arm across is irrelevant to finish the choke if you have gotten the 90° angle, the thing is, unless you have long legs, like really long lengs, if you have average for example, its quite difficult to lock it up if the person is really big. Also, for sd purposes, getting the arm across is a good habit to make, you cannot get bitten out of desperation, and the triangle is about the safest sub to go in a SD situation. So I explain to my students what does the arm across is for, when is a must and when is not.

AS you said, some people like to keep the arm going across because there are a couple of escapes that can be done with the arm all the way across, but those dont really work if you have gotten the angle before they start doing the escapes... may be escaping through the back door can be done in the process of locking it up, but onces is locked, that option goes out of the window...

I usually agree wit most of what you post, but when the arm is across, people can still get that back door escape. It's not very common and I certainly don't think an untrained person could ever do it, but there are a few grapplers and MMA guys that do attempt it and sometimes succeed with it.

Again, I'm not a big advocate for or against pulling the arm across. I think there are pros and cons to each and I think once the 90 degree angle is in place it doesn't really matter where their arm is. They're pretty much fucked at that point.

 

[asian-glow]

I have never had that triangle escape done to me but I can perfectly visualize it. I can definitely see it working particularly in nogi. I'm gunna have to roll with some mma gyms and see if people will do this to me.

Also thanks for the time stamped Rafa videos. I never noticed that he actually seems to just put himself into position for it then waits for his opponent to posture out of it, which alleviates the triangle but makes the armbar worse for the opponent. It kind of bothers me that there are some points where Rafa is real close to being stacked on his head but I guess Rafa will always win the armbar battle before the stack ever happens.

 

[mataleaos]

Also thanks for the time stamped Rafa videos. I never noticed that he actually seems to just put himself into position for it then waits for his opponent to posture out of it, which alleviates the triangle but makes the armbar worse for the opponent. It kind of bothers me that there are some points where Rafa is real close to being stacked on his head but I guess Rafa will always win the armbar battle before the stack ever happens.

Also meant to say that Rafa used to sometimes lock his triangle over the foot instead of the ankle.

I don't want to go too far off track and this is going to sound d-baggish because he's one of the best ever and I'm just some random dude. But in his first few years at black belt despite being such a good finisher he actually had what would be considered now days to be kind of sloppy details on some of his submissions. But if you watch him rolling in the mid 10's he seemed to have either cleaned some of that stuff up. The main example that comes to mind is he used to like to put his 2nd hand on top of the head to finish the RNC instead of behind the head.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Also meant to say that Rafa used to sometimes lock his triangle over the foot instead of the ankle.

I don't want to go too far off track and this is going to sound d-baggish because he's one of the best ever and I'm just some random dude. But in his first few years at black belt despite being such a good finisher he actually had what would be considered now days to be kind of sloppy details on some of his submissions. But if you watch him rolling in the mid 10's he seemed to have either cleaned some of that stuff up. The main example that comes to mind is he used to like to put his 2nd hand on top of the head to finish the RNC instead of behind the head.

I was about to say the same thing, Rafas rnc wasn’t per say the best text book one, I remember his roll with jake shields being discussed in this forum... but hell who the heck am I to talk about him... but when I think one rnc I think On Marcelo not rafa, or when I think about triangles I may think on Braulio, not rafa... I guess some bad habits just stick around...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I usually agree wit most of what you post, but when the arm is across, people can still get that back door escape. It's not very common and I certainly don't think an untrained person could ever do it, but there are a few grapplers and MMA guys that do attempt it and sometimes succeed with it.

Again, I'm not a big advocate for or against pulling the arm across. I think there are pros and cons to each and I think once the 90 degree angle is in place it doesn't really matter where their arm is. They're pretty much fucked at that point.

Sure, specially if the shoulder is completely out of the triangle, I personally have way more problems with guys overlooking my looking my locking leg and preventing me to locking it up... i have to start working that arm...

 

[mataleaos]

I was about to say the same thing, Rafas rnc wasn’t per say the best text book one, I remember his roll with jake shields being discussed in this forum...I guess some bad habits just stick around...

The funny thing is he did it on purpose. I did a no-gi private lesson with him in 2012 and again in 2015. The first time I asked him about the RNC because I'd seen him do it that way in some matches and he said he liked to put his palm on the back on their head and "push it down into the choking arm like when you pull down the head on a triangle" and he said he used his chin to cover the top of his hand to make it harder for them to pull the hand off. He also said his hands were big and sometimes it was hard to get it behind the head so he came up with this way.

In 2015 I asked him to show me if he had changed any of his no-gi game since back in 2012 and the few things that stuck out were

- He started putting the hand behind the head on the RNC.
- He added more reverse x-guard into his guard game.
- He started adding more darce to go along with the anaconda.
- He made the anaconda from top half roll-over more of a fall and less of a dive
- He started doing more low elbow guillotines.
- He said he was in a closed guard phase and was working a lot of reverse kimura grip to take the back.
- He said he was also playing with more long step passing while V-gripping the far ankle

 

[JagRoss]

The funny thing is he did it on purpose. I did a no-gi private lesson with him in 2012 and again in 2015. The first time I asked him about the RNC because I'd seen him do it that way in some matches and he said he liked to put his palm on the back on their head and "push it down into the choking arm like when you pull down the head on a triangle" and he said he used his chin to cover the top of his hand to make it harder for them to pull the hand off. He also said his hands were big and sometimes it was hard to get it behind the head so he came up with this way.

In 2015 I asked him to show me if he had changed any of his no-gi game since back in 2012 and the few things that stuck out were

- He started putting the hand behind the head on the RNC.
- He added more reverse x-guard into his guard game.
- He started adding more darce to go along with the anaconda.
- He made the anaconda from top half roll-over more of a fall and less of a dive
- He started doing more low elbow guillotines.
- He said he was in a closed guard phase and was working a lot of reverse kimura grip to take the back.
- He said he was also playing with more long step passing while V-gripping the far ankle

Both the Mendes bros have huge hands.

They're like 5'9 with the hands of an NBA center.

 

[mataleaos]

Both the Mendes bros have huge hands.

They're like 5'9 with the hands of an NBA center.

Yeah they have Alaskan snow crab hands for sure. Rafa has the biggest hands of anyone I've ever seen in my life in proportion to their height and weight. This pic doesn't do it justice but his hands are as wide and tall as his head. Oh yeah and he's got flippers for feet.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

Stomp and curl only changes the size of your triangle if you let your foot push through your knee. But that diminishes the structural strength of the triangle. So it's a trade off there.

The tightest triangle (structurally with your bones) is the one you can lock with the least amount of angle. The size of the triangle your legs make is more or less fixed no matter which angle you are at. The natural tightness then becomes how much of your opponent you have jammed into that fixed space. Making the angle jams less of him into that same space. Therefore making the angle lessens the structural pressure on his neck.

The stomp and curl loosens your triangle somewhat. The idea is that you make up for it with strength by putting yourself in a position to use big muscles (glutes and hamstrings) to crank on it. That works well in a lot of situations. I'm about Ryan's size and use his way most of the time.

But if you're much taller, the triangle is loose even before you cut the angle. In that case if you angle to stomp and curl, it's just way too loose to make up for it with strength alone. The trick is to stay square and use the third dimension backwards to triangle your foot lower on your opponent's ribs. This makes it structurally tight even against a skinny opponent.

You said you are short so I doubt any of this applies to you. Long legs for your height or not, if your height is anything less than average, stomp and curl is almost always the way to go. Even for average height, stomp and curl works a lot of the time.

It's when you are a guy with above average height that you start to see why some other ways still persist. I mean do we really think top competitors just missed the memo on this detail that has been well known for 10+ years now? There is a good reason why people still stay square sometimes even at the highest levels.

How does the stomp and curl loosen the triangle? Typically if i can keep my opponent square they have much less pressure on my neck. If they are able to take an angle its significantly tighter.