How does Matt Hughes do in today's era of Welterweight?

[Stump]

He's pretty underrated.

Arguably 2nd place WW of all time? Behind whom? GSP obviously first, but Hughes is definitely second.

If we could magically bring a 16 year old matt Hughes forward in time 20 years and have him start training MMA as a young man in the contemporary MMA environment, he'd probably be a GOAT today.

He had unbelievable physical strength and incredible cardio. His striking was slowly getting better at the end of his career, which was almost enough to keep him in the mix at the elite of WW in his last few fights but his chin also seemed to take a dive around that time. If he could have taken a punch just a little bit better, we'd have seen him string a few more wins on his record at the end.

A Matt hughes that trained properly, kept his chin protected, learned striking much earlier and had more motivation from having come up in a time for the sport where a fighter could see themselves making serious money - this would be a pretty formidable fighter.

 

[Cooliox]

Matt Hughes with modern training facilities and modern money from the sport... along with has farmboy strength and NCAA All-American wrestling pedigree... would be very scary.

Belal and Leon are not beating him. No way.

Prime Woodley would have been a good fight, Hughes subs him though.

Modern era WWs suck. Prime Jon Fitch beat all of them.

 

[Bullitt68]

Ken is imo a bad example. People would be more willing to to look away from his losses if he hadnt been such a mental midget and quitter in a lot also showing horrible skillsets. It tarnished his previous wins because it kinda exposed the level of opponents he fought before. Not his fault. Ken just never was that good to begin. Frank Shamrock is a whole other ballpark and thats why he is nowadays still highly respected no matter the record.

Ken is actually a perfect example and you have proven my point marvelously by posting such a massively ignorant response. You describe as a "mental midget and quitter" the man who won the first King of Pancrase title after a two-day, four-fight tournament, someone who fought multiple 20+ minute fights, and someone who fought countless times through serious injury, and you describe as "horrible skillsets" the wrestling that allowed Ken to stop every TD from decorated wrestlers like Dan Severn and Kazuyuki Fujita, the submission game that allowed him to dominate a catch wrestling org, and the striking that he was able to develop after a full career in MMA and a career in pro wrestling and that he was able to use to knock out Alexander Otsuka (which Igor Vovchanchyn couldn't do), sprawl-and-brawl a prime Fujita more effectively than anybody else (and that's including Fedor and Cro Cop), and rock Rich Franklin. He also trained Frank and is the one who instilled in Frank the importance of conditioning. But none of this will matter and you'll go on insisting that Ken's a never-was because you're incapable of seeing how great he was, thus proving my point perfectly.

Good point about UFC 48, but Hughes had 23 fights before the second loss. Hughes was a good grappler at that point of time, but not great at submission defense.

The number of fights is irrelevant. Hughes had only been competing for a couple of years and training with Pat Miletich and Jeremy Horn for like a year. Hughes by the second Hallman fight is like Bas Rutten by his second fight with Ken Shamrock. Were they better than they were the first time around? Yes. Were they anywhere near as good as they'd become after losing to them again? Not even close. It was losing to Hallman a second time that pissed Hughes off enough to actually devote himself to learning the sub game, just like it was losing to Ken a second time that pissed Bas off enough to dedicate himself to becoming a submission fighter. The Hughes that lost that second time to Hallman would never have been able to submit Royce or GSP, just like the Bas that lost to Ken that second time would never have been able to hit rolling kneebars or counter toe holds.

Hallman was one of those wily and wiry fighters that slip in those chokes and armlocks from weird angles. Never liked him, but he was a bit of an overlooked fighter back in the day. Thanks for your thoughts. Cheers!

Well, he never actually beat anybody good. Every time he fought somebody above average, from Caol Uno and Amaury Bitetti to Frank Trigg and Drew Fickett, he lost. He even lost to the other two Miletich fighters he faced back in the day, Dave Menne and Jens Pulver. Hughes isn't just by far the best W on his record, he's the only good W on his record...unless we want to count Shannon "The Cannon" Ritch

Hughes today would get starched up. When he lost to Koscheck and Alves, they were the young bloods at the time. It just happened that GSP was able to evolve and get better while Hughes was still that one dimensional wrestler with good submission skills.

The GSP comparison isn't appropriate since GSP was from a later generation. Hughes was already years into competing and the UFC champ when GSP debuted. You also can't call Hughes "one dimensional" and then talk about his two dimensions of wrestling and submissions.

This is stupid.
Hughes walked around at well over 200 pounds and used diuretics to help cut weight and used IVs to help rehydrate. Hughes was going to fight for the UFC MW title until Franklin won it and they decided not to fight because they were teammates at Team Miltech.

Do you have any sources for this? Because I'm remembering Hughes being 185-190 out of competition, not "well over 200 pounds."

 

[Hog-train]

If you don’t know the difference between random and testing and no testing on what you can and can’t use and how much .. that’s on you.

They did "random testing" back in the day too. Easily beatable if you're not a moron.

 

[jko1355]

They did "random testing" back in the day too. Easily beatable if you're not a moron.

It was random.by the commission on fight day.... and in pride it was never for steroids except the like 1 card here

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Ken is actually a perfect example and you have proven my point marvelously by posting such a massively ignorant response. You describe as a "mental midget and quitter" the man who won the first King of Pancrase title after a two-day, four-fight tournament, someone who fought multiple 20+ minute fights, and someone who fought countless times through serious injury, and you describe as "horrible skillsets" the wrestling that allowed Ken to stop every TD from decorated wrestlers like Dan Severn and Kazuyuki Fujita, the submission game that allowed him to dominate a catch wrestling org, and the striking that he was able to develop after a full career in MMA and a career in pro wrestling and that he was able to use to knock out Alexander Otsuka (which Igor Vovchanchyn couldn't do), sprawl-and-brawl a prime Fujita more effectively than anybody else (and that's including Fedor and Cro Cop), and rock Rich Franklin. He also trained Frank and is the one who instilled in Frank the importance of conditioning. But none of this will matter and you'll go on insisting that Ken's a never-was because you're incapable of seeing how great he was, thus proving my point perfectly.



The number of fights is irrelevant. Hughes had only been competing for a couple of years and training with Pat Miletich and Jeremy Horn for like a year. Hughes by the second Hallman fight is like Bas Rutten by his second fight with Ken Shamrock. Were they better than they were the first time around? Yes. Were they anywhere near as good as they'd become after losing to them again? Not even close. It was losing to Hallman a second time that pissed Hughes off enough to actually devote himself to learning the sub game, just like it was losing to Ken a second time that pissed Bas off enough to dedicate himself to becoming a submission fighter. The Hughes that lost that second time to Hallman would never have been able to submit Royce or GSP, just like the Bas that lost to Ken that second time would never have been able to hit rolling kneebars or counter toe holds.



Well, he never actually beat anybody good. Every time he fought somebody above average, from Caol Uno and Amaury Bitetti to Frank Trigg and Drew Fickett, he lost. He even lost to the other two Miletich fighters he faced back in the day, Dave Menne and Jens Pulver. Hughes isn't just by far the best W on his record, he's the only good W on his record...unless we want to count Shannon "The Cannon" Ritch



The GSP comparison isn't appropriate since GSP was from a later generation. Hughes was already years into competing and the UFC champ when GSP debuted. You also can't call Hughes "one dimensional" and then talk about his two dimensions of wrestling and submissions.



Do you have any sources for this? Because I'm remembering Hughes being 185-190 out of competition, not "well over 200 pounds."

Just Hughes himself when they were contemplating letting him fight for the MW title against Evan Tanner. I think it was on Jim Rome but he was asked what's next for Matt Hughes and Hughes said he's thinking about fighting for the MW title and Jim goes aren't you a little small for that and Matt says I walk around well over 200 pounds.

 

[Bullitt68]

Just Hughes himself when they were contemplating letting him fight for the MW title against Evan Tanner. I think it was on Jim Rome but he was asked what's next for Matt Hughes and Hughes said he's thinking about fighting for the MW title and Jim goes aren't you a little small for that and Matt says I walk around well over 200 pounds.

So no, you don't have a source, you have a memory. I've been an MMA fan for over two decades now. At some point in the last 20 years, I read about how the first Pancrase event lasted 57 minutes, or maybe 53 minutes, or maybe 67 minutes. I don't actually remember the specific time, and I've never been able to find a source for this. Memory is better than nothing, but it's not better than a source. For my part, I'm finding no sources for this nor am I finding Hughes appearing with Jim Rome anywhere in 2005 or 2006. Let me know if you can find a source.

 

[Bork Neslar]

We'll never know.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Matt’s ground game by today’s standards is still very good. Better takedowns and subs then half of the current top ten.

Outside of Brady and Buck, he’d still have a strength advantage.

The evolution of striking is overstated. We added calf kicks, but fundamentals have not changed and they never will. Hughes may not be suited to the wrestler cardio kickboxing matches that we’ve seen, but this seems like more of a strategy that could be adapted with a camp or two, more so then a lack of abilties or skills. I’m thinking of Colby vs. Usman here. Hughes might not excel in a fight like that with his skills as we know them, but if he timewarped in his early-mid 20’s, there’s no reason to think he couldn’t adapt.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

This is stupid.
Hughes walked around at well over 200 pounds and used diuretics to help cut weight and used IVs to help rehydrate. Hughes was going to fight for the UFC MW title until Franklin won it and they decided not to fight because they were teammates at Team Miltech.

Yeah so stupid. He was also supposed to fight in a LW PRIDE FC grand prix. FYI Diego Sanchez won the MW TUF, Kenny Florian fought at MW and yet both also cut down to FW. Guys can cut weight especially since the topic was in TODAY's MMA where weight cutting and management is far more advanced then 20 years ago.

 

[ElLunico]

If you take what he was when he fought and put him in today's WW. He wouldn't make it anywhere close to the belt. If you think for second a one dimensional wrestler from back then has the same success in today's MMA slap yourself.

Why stop with him? Yall think Royce Gracie would submit HW's and LHW's today? He can wear his Gi too against the crappiest ones?

Now let's say a young Matt Hughes had the benefit of today's training, coaches, sparring.. He probably would've have been a problem

 

[Plissken]

Given the top two guys at ww are wrestlers with a strong ground game he'd do great. His only drawback was that his striking game wasn't great (though he was a hard kicker with a decent jab), but it's not like Belal or Brady are that strong there either. If he started now and had the benefit of early striking training and even better grappling training he'd dominate for years considering the current climate at ww is largely dominated by strikers.

 

[Clark Rogers]

I imagine if he came up in this era he'd be about as successful.

Would he have to be more well rounded? Perhaps, but unless you plucked him out of 2000 and drop him in 2025, I imagine he'd train accordingly.

 

[Dr. Rose]

Ken is actually a perfect example and you have proven my point marvelously by posting such a massively ignorant response. You describe as a "mental midget and quitter" the man who won the first King of Pancrase title after a two-day, four-fight tournament, someone who fought multiple 20+ minute fights, and someone who fought countless times through serious injury, and you describe as "horrible skillsets" the wrestling that allowed Ken to stop every TD from decorated wrestlers like Dan Severn and Kazuyuki Fujita, the submission game that allowed him to dominate a catch wrestling org, and the striking that he was able to develop after a full career in MMA and a career in pro wrestling and that he was able to use to knock out Alexander Otsuka (which Igor Vovchanchyn couldn't do), sprawl-and-brawl a prime Fujita more effectively than anybody else (and that's including Fedor and Cro Cop), and rock Rich Franklin. He also trained Frank and is the one who instilled in Frank the importance of conditioning. But none of this will matter and you'll go on insisting that Ken's a never-was because you're incapable of seeing how great he was, thus proving my point perfectly.



The number of fights is irrelevant. Hughes had only been competing for a couple of years and training with Pat Miletich and Jeremy Horn for like a year. Hughes by the second Hallman fight is like Bas Rutten by his second fight with Ken Shamrock. Were they better than they were the first time around? Yes. Were they anywhere near as good as they'd become after losing to them again? Not even close. It was losing to Hallman a second time that pissed Hughes off enough to actually devote himself to learning the sub game, just like it was losing to Ken a second time that pissed Bas off enough to dedicate himself to becoming a submission fighter. The Hughes that lost that second time to Hallman would never have been able to submit Royce or GSP, just like the Bas that lost to Ken that second time would never have been able to hit rolling kneebars or counter toe holds.



Well, he never actually beat anybody good. Every time he fought somebody above average, from Caol Uno and Amaury Bitetti to Frank Trigg and Drew Fickett, he lost. He even lost to the other two Miletich fighters he faced back in the day, Dave Menne and Jens Pulver. Hughes isn't just by far the best W on his record, he's the only good W on his record...unless we want to count Shannon "The Cannon" Ritch



The GSP comparison isn't appropriate since GSP was from a later generation. Hughes was already years into competing and the UFC champ when GSP debuted. You also can't call Hughes "one dimensional" and then talk about his two dimensions of wrestling and submissions.



Do you have any sources for this? Because I'm remembering Hughes being 185-190 out of competition, not "well over 200 pounds."

Good points. And I met Hughes later in his career. He was a solid 185. He was one of those old school wrestlers (a little like myself) who learned how to drop 10-15 lbs in a week to make weight.

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

They can't even stop eye-pokes... much less beachnut being spit in an eye.

 

[snugglecakes]

prolly not that great. The steroid testing would be a brick wall for him

 

[TheNinja]

He'd be champ.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

So no, you don't have a source, you have a memory. I've been an MMA fan for over two decades now. At some point in the last 20 years, I read about how the first Pancrase event lasted 57 minutes, or maybe 53 minutes, or maybe 67 minutes. I don't actually remember the specific time, and I've never been able to find a source for this. Memory is better than nothing, but it's not better than a source. For my part, I'm finding no sources for this nor am I finding Hughes appearing with Jim Rome anywhere in 2005 or 2006. Let me know if you can find a source.

Will do. Give me 48 hours from now. I'm find the video.

 

[VinceArch]

prolly not that great. The steroid testing would be a brick wall for him

I highly doubt it.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Given the top two guys at ww are wrestlers with a strong ground game he'd do great. His only drawback was that his striking game wasn't great (though he was a hard kicker with a decent jab), but it's not like Belal or Brady are that strong there either. If he started now and had the benefit of early striking training and even better grappling training he'd dominate for years considering the current climate at ww is largely dominated by strikers.

Idk about that. Hughes trained in striking for a very long time and still looked terrible even toward the end of his career. I dont think he had any talent for it.