International How do 'Muricans cope with the binary contradiction of supposedly supporting freedom in Ukraine yet doing the same thing to Venezuela?

[KnightTemplar]

Tell that to Vietnam and Afghanistan.

The US is strong on paper, and we could bomb everyone into oblivion, but when it comes to occupying allegedly weak foreign Nations we have a pretty terrible track record.

True. The devil is always in the details. Although to be fair, very few nations have done well in Afghanistan or Vietnam.

Afghanistan is called the Graveyard of Empires, and even the Mongols got their shit pushed in by Vietnam.

 

[Sinister]

True. The devil is always in the details. Although to be fair, very few nations have done well in Afghanistan or Vietnam.

Afghanistan is called the Graveyard of Empires, and even the Mongols got their shit pushed in by Vietnam.

Yea but this shows a systemic vulnerability to empires. One that can be counted on.

I've read about what the Confederacy wanted after the Civil War. What they wanted the U.S. Empire to look like. And thanks to the Liberal Republicans wanting to almost immediately make nice with the traitors to preserve the Union, the Radical Republicans only had a small window to adjust our Constituton when it probably should have been shredded and re-written. But the fact is the Government wanted similar goals, just not to go about them in as brash a manner as the Confederacy would have.

From Mexico South were to become plantation States, with U.S.-favored leaders in office and resources primarily coming here. Like The Capitol in Hunger Games. And the United States would continue to be the same Ethno-State as the First Republic was before the Civil War, complete with slave labor and tiered citizenship (no voting rights for women and minorities). If you think about what's happening right now in that context, it's pretty obvious this is a limp-d*cked attempt to fulfill that fantasy.

But as I said we are pretty terrible at occupation. Every area we've tried to colonize in recent History ends up like Haiti, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam with its enduring communism. And we remain economically vulnerable to caliphates like Saudi Arabia. The donor class here is just fortunate enough to have a citizenry consisting largely of ignorant consumers focused on our pickup trucks, guns, and teasing each other about hustle culture or respective gayness, and we are easy to convince that these Nations are dumpster fires BECAUSE of their ethnicities, and thus the cycle can continue. Americans are smarter, better, more manly, Venezuela is better off with us. We were hating Venzuelan refugees 5 seconds ago and celebrating them being locked in Alligator Alcatraz, now we're sharing AI videos of them dancing in our streets. Lol

 

[KnightTemplar]

Yea but this shows a systemic vulnerability to empires. One that can be counted on.

I've read about what the Confederacy wanted after the Civil War. What they wanted the U.S. Empire to look like. And thanks to the Liberal Republicans wanting to almost immediately make nice with the traitors to preserve the Union, the Radical Republicans only had a small window to adjust our Constituton when it probably should have been shredded and re-written. But the fact is the Government wanted similar goals, just not to go about them in as brash a manner as the Confederacy would have.

From Mexico South were to become plantation States, with U.S.-favored leaders in office and resources primarily coming here. Like The Capitol in Hunger Games. And the United States would continue to be the same Ethno-State as the First Republic was before the Civil War, complete with slave labor and tiered citizenship (no voting rights for women and minorities). If you think about what's happening right now in that context, it's pretty obvious this is a limp-d*cked attempt to fulfill that fantasy.

But as I said we are pretty terrible at occupation. Every area we've tried to colonize in recent History ends up like Haiti, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam with its enduring communism. And we remain economically vulnerable to caliphates like Saudi Arabia. The donor class here is just fortunate enough to have a citizenry consisting largely of ignorant consumers focused on our pickup trucks, guns, and teasing each other about hustle culture or respective gayness, and we are easy to convince that these Nations are dumpster fires BECAUSE of their ethnicities, and thus the cycle can continue. Americans are smarter, better, more manly, Venezuela is better off with us. We were hating Venzuelan refugees 5 seconds ago and celebrating them being locked in Alligator Alcatraz, now we're sharing AI videos of them dancing in our streets. Lol

Look on the bright side: the reason America always fails to colonise the country's it defeats in open warfare is the price of doing so would be morally unacceptable. Even to the guns and pickup owning people you just mentioned.

 

[UberHere]

Tell that to Vietnam and Afghanistan.

The US is strong on paper, and we could bomb everyone into oblivion, but when it comes to occupying allegedly weak foreign Nations we have a pretty terrible track record.

One could just as easily argue they never saw the full force of what we could do. We could’ve wiped them off the map.

And I’m not arguing we should have. But yeah, as an occupying force, we suck.

 

[Trabaho]

Not all bad huh

 

[Sinister]

One could just as easily argue they never saw the full force of what we could do. We could’ve wiped them off the map.

And I’m not arguing we should have. But yeah, as an occupying force, we suck.

Right I'm not debating that. Although we also suck at War strategy. Vietnam we were comically inefficient. I mean our occupation of Afghanistan turned MORE people into religious extremists. I've seen all the argument here that it was because we made them "Librul" what with the women's liberation and sh*t, but that's just cover fodder to feed our own political divisions. Where we really f*cked up is how we always do, bleeding their economy dry and shoving more people into poverty. People like ex Military and Cops who have access to guns.

Check out the "Bush at War" series by Woodward. He was IN the White House during the Iraq occupation. The moves we made were comically absurd. I always forget that idiot's name we put in charge but he wore suits and Timbaland bolts. Lol Brehmer I think? The guy who occupied Saddam's former palace and gave his wife sh*t from their National museum as gifts right in front if them. *facepalm*

 

[Sinister]

Not all bad huh

We're gonna "freedom" them right into corporate servitude!!

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Not all bad huh

TBH that was the least convincing piece I have seen on the topic. You could find some diaspora hoe from any country USA attacked illegaly that says literally the same thing.

I wouldn‘t mind watching her prön though.

 

[Bacco]

I actually think Putin‘s attack on Ukraine is 100x more warranted than Trump‘s attack on Venezuela. Ukraine is home of the Sebastopol fleet, the area between Crimea and Russia is largely Russian in population and Kiev was flirting a bit too much with Nato. You may find these reasons not sufficient to invade, I don‘t condone it. But that thing is Venezuela is #1 bullshit. I think literally nobody outside of USA actually doesn‘t see that this was a W-esque coup motivated by natural ressources.

Made long post but did'nt saved it, eh whatever, with my english probably was'nt worthy read anyway

Short version

Unlike laws that only value an action as itself, personally i value both the action and the target before chose how much i'm triggered over it

So even if we want assume it's a suckerpunch even more gratuitous than Putin's invasion of Ukraine (i see both as aggression of a giant state against a weaker one), the face receiving it deserved it much more... not for wich "team" belong to, but for actual respective history/situation of Maduro and Zelensky (and more important what they represent for respective populations) not being even remotely comparable

And if we want consider acton itself, i have hard time compare a few hours operation (at least so far) that targeted directly a dictator with a 4 years ongoing war that murdered hundred thousands people and make millions suffer
But if we want consider the principle/trigger alone i can concede the similarity of the "i'm bigger, so fuck you" nature of the punch

I don't deny it's a golpe and made in good % for oil (and rest % to strike down a China/Russia ally), nor i believe Trump is Mr.Justice... just watch how is treating Ukraine itself, most of times behave like he prefer Russia lol

Big shark attacked smaller shark, not much to complain as long i'm concerned, venzuelan people were not represented by or happy about Maduro's dictatorship

I personally just wish shit does'nt escalate into civil war and that venezuelan people will live better under whatever western-approved leader they get next
If is good thing or bad thing is stll to see how events will shape for venezuelan people in next years, while i don't expect new leader be picked for his democratic values, be lesser cancer than previous one should not be that crazy feat

Putin's invasion of Ukraine in no way can end up being something good for ukranian people, who elected Zelensky exactly to detach themselves from Russia's influence

 

[The XL]

Not all bad huh

Lol, these people have no idea. They're going to have a puppet government there to serve the interests of Western corporations, their oil is going to be taken, the sovereignty of their state owned central bank will be no more. At least they have some excuse for their ignorance and gullibility, but lol at the Americans who think this was done out of altruism.

 

[koquerelle]

I think it would be a futile exercise if you don't see the differences. I know it would involve a sock puppet show and it's too cold for me to go barefoot.

 

[UberHere]

Lol, these people have no idea. They're going to have a puppet government there to serve the interests of Western corporations, their oil is going to be taken, the sovereignty of their state owned central bank will be no more. At least they have some excuse for their ignorance and gullibility, but lol at the Americans who think this was done out of altruism.

I’m not justifying what we did, but the alternative was their socialist government stealing the oil while everyone starves. We saw how that was going. I don’t see how western corporate involvement will make things worse. Assuming there’s no political destabilization.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Made long post but did'nt saved it, eh whatever, with my english probably was'nt worthy read anyway

Short version

Unlike laws that only value an action as itself, personally i value both the action and the target before chose how much i'm triggered over it

So even if we want assume it's a suckerpunch even more gratuitous than Putin's invasion of Ukraine (i see both as aggression of a giant state against a weaker one), the face receiving it deserved it much more... not for wich "team" belong to, but for actual respective history/situation of Maduro and Zelensky (and more important what they represent for respective populations) not being even remotely comparable

And if we want consider acton itself, i have hard time compare a few hours operation (at least so far) that targeted directly a dictator with a 4 years ongoing war that murdered hundred thousands people and make millions suffer
But if we want consider the principle/trigger alone i can concede the similarity of the "i'm bigger, so fuck you" nature of the punch

I don't deny it's a golpe and made in good % for oil (and rest % to strike down a China/Russia ally), nor i believe Trump is Mr.Justice... just watch how is treating Ukraine itself, most of times behave like he prefer Russia lol

Big shark attacked smaller shark, not much to complain as long i'm concerned, venzuelan people were not represented by or happy about Maduro's dictatorship

I personally just wish shit does'nt escalate into civil war and that venezuelan people will live better under whatever western-approved leader they get next
If is good thing or bad thing is stll to see how events will shape for venezuelan people in next years, while i don't expect new leader be picked for his democratic values, be lesser cancer than previous one should not be that crazy feat

Putin's invasion of Ukraine in no way can end up being something good for ukranian people, who elected Zelensky exactly to detach themselves from Russia's influence

That s the short version motherfucker??

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Made long post but did'nt saved it, eh whatever, with my english probably was'nt worthy read anyway

Short version

Unlike laws that only value an action as itself, personally i value both the action and the target before chose how much i'm triggered over it

So even if we want assume it's a suckerpunch even more gratuitous than Putin's invasion of Ukraine (i see both as aggression of a giant state against a weaker one), the face receiving it deserved it much more... not for wich "team" belong to, but for actual respective history/situation of Maduro and Zelensky (and more important what they represent for respective populations) not being even remotely comparable

And if we want consider acton itself, i have hard time compare a few hours operation (at least so far) that targeted directly a dictator with a 4 years ongoing war that murdered hundred thousands people and make millions suffer
But if we want consider the principle/trigger alone i can concede the similarity of the "i'm bigger, so fuck you" nature of the punch

I don't deny it's a golpe and made in good % for oil (and rest % to strike down a China/Russia ally), nor i believe Trump is Mr.Justice... just watch how is treating Ukraine itself, most of times behave like he prefer Russia lol

Big shark attacked smaller shark, not much to complain as long i'm concerned, venzuelan people were not represented by or happy about Maduro's dictatorship

I personally just wish shit does'nt escalate into civil war and that venezuelan people will live better under whatever western-approved leader they get next
If is good thing or bad thing is stll to see how events will shape for venezuelan people in next years, while i don't expect new leader be picked for his democratic values, be lesser cancer than previous one should not be that crazy feat

Putin's invasion of Ukraine in no way can end up being something good for ukranian people, who elected Zelensky exactly to detach themselves from Russia's influence

I do get your point but I think your view misses an essential part of the equation : Venezuela was never even remotely a real problem for USA, while Ukraine was becoming a real problem for Russia for the reasons I mentioned. Again not saying that i condone Russia s invasion but you have to concede that there are levels to how problematic both countries were to both invaders.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

Lol, these people have no idea. They're going to have a puppet government there to serve the interests of Western corporations, their oil is going to be taken, the sovereignty of their state owned central bank will be no more. At least they have some excuse for their ignorance and gullibility, but lol at the Americans who think this was done out of altruism.

Just out of curiosity do you not see any upside at all even if all of that is true?

Before Chavez and Maduro Venezuelan economy was 4-5 times larger even if it had problems brewing. The US was operating in Venezuela for decades.

 

[Sinister]

I’m not justifying what we did, but the alternative was their socialist government stealing the oil while everyone starves. We saw how that was going. I don’t see how western corporate involvement will make things worse. Assuming there’s no political destabilization.

This is dishonest. The oil was decommidified, meaning no entity had specific control over it. When our corporations were removed from the equation, we responded with trade embargo and having Saudi Arabia flood the market, which tanked the Venezuelan economy. That's where the widespread poverty came from.

You're repeating the capitalist narrative of events. We work with plenty of other Countries who also have decommidified resources, as long as they do with those resources whatever we want.

 

[Sinister]

Just out of curiosity do you not see any upside at all even if all of that is true?

Before Chavez and Maduro Venezuelan economy was 4-5 times larger even if it had problems brewing. The US was operating in Venezuela for decades.

It shrank because they dared to tell us "no."

Remember what happened to Central America when they told the United Fruit Company "no?" Are they better off? Their beacon of hope for stability is a lunatic running a Prison State where a woman got 30 years for having a miscarriage.

 

[MetalMilitia]

It shrank because they dared to tell us "no."

Remember what happened to Central America when they told the United Fruit Company "no?" Are they better off? Their beacon of hope for stability is a lunatic running a Prison State where a woman got 30 years for having a miscarriage.

Wow -- refreshing you have yer own opinions again. -- Kinda

 

[Trabaho]

 

[Scott Stapp]