How big of an advantage is Ngannou's size and should heavyweight be split into 2 divisions?

[Ragnus]

Lots of things wrong with your suggestion:

1. Like most MMA fans, you misunderstand weight classes and overrate the importance of weight. Weight classes aren't just for separating fighters of different weights. It's assumed that as weight goes up, height and reach do too. All three size properties matter. But even then, they're just part of a complicated style matchup. The different size properties all have advantages and disadvantages, that play into fighters' fighting styles.
   
2. Francis and Stipe are pretty similarly-sized, so your example is strange. Francis is obviously taller, longer, and heavier, but only by small margins. There are way worse examples of this in the HW division.
   
3. Francis isn't as heavy as you think. Yes, he definitely could cut under 250. He's weighed in at 252 and 254 before. He could cut to a 225 lb division if he really wanted.
   
4. Heavyweight is already barren. LHW is too. You want to further stretch these already thin divisions? Boxing is well known for having too many divisions. MMA is even worse for the heavier divisions. Boxing has 175, 200, and Heavyweight. MMA has 185, 205, HW, SHW, plus fighters cut more weight in MMA than in boxing, and you want to add yet another division?

Lots of things wrong with what you have said:
1. First thing first it is clear by my post and comments that the semantics of "weight" to me are in relation to muscle mass and leanness im not discussing those outliers such as people who have little muscle and have a lot of fat storage. Im talking generally and almost all of the time if the person has more muscles mass and leanness and is a weightclass above he is more likely to have the height and reach advantage. Francis has both the reach and weight advantage.
2. Francis and Stipe aren't similarly-sized. Francis is obviously longer and heavier for margins that are clearly visible enough to notice these attributes. Whether there are way worse examples means literally nothing since im discussing Francis and Stipe.
3. Francis is exactly as heavy as I think, I don't care if he's weighed in at 252, 254 or 135. Conor has weighed in at 145 before guess what he never will again. Anthony Johnson weighed in at 170 guess what he never will again. Your our of your mind if you think he could cut to 225lb he would have to go into a nazi gass chamber and actively try to lose all his muscle which is nearly impossible when taking into consideration the psychological and physiological strength you'd need to cut that much muscle mass. Check out set point theory.
4. The two weight division idea was a hypothetical, I am completely aware that the heavyweight division is already terrible.

 

[johncola]

Lots of things wrong with what you have said:
1. First thing first it is clear by my post and comments that the semantics of "weight" to me are in relation to muscle mass and leanness im not discussing those outliers such as people who have little muscle and have a lot of fat storage. Im talking generally and almost all of the time if the person has more muscles mass and leanness and is a weightclass above he is more likely to have the height and reach advantage. Francis has both the reach and weight advantage.
2. Francis and Stipe aren't similarly-sized. Francis is obviously longer and heavier for margins that are clearly visible enough to notice these attributes. Whether there are way worse examples means literally nothing since im discussing Francis and Stipe.
3. Francis is exactly as heavy as I think, I don't care if he's weighed in at 252, 254 or 135. Conor has weighed in at 145 before guess what he never will again. Anthony Johnson weighed in at 170 guess what he never will again. Your our of your mind if you think he could cut to 225lb he would have to go into a nazi gass chamber and actively try to lose all his muscle which is nearly impossible when taking into consideration the psychological and physiological strength you'd need to cut that much muscle mass. Check out set point theory.
4. The two weight division idea was a hypothetical, I am completely aware that the heavyweight division is already terrible.

1. I'm not arguing semantics. I'm responding to your meaning, not your words. I'm stating that I think that what you believe is wrong. Most fans don't understand the first point I've made. You haven't demonstrated that you do. Your suggestion that we need a 230 lbs division demonstrates that you don't. Eddie Alvarez cuts more weight than Conor at lightweight. Yet Conor has the more advantageous dimensions in that matchup.
2. That there are worse examples means everything. If you're making the point that there's a size disparity between heavyweight to such an extent that a new weight class is necessary, pick a better example than this. Stipe is one of the biggest heavyweights on the roster.
3. Francis could weigh in the 250's again. It's not like he's as lean as most fighters from lower weight classes. He could lose less than 5% of his body fat and be back in that range. Even if he didn't do that, he'd still be capable of cutting to 250. A 270 lbs heavyweight with as much muscle as Francis has is easily capable of cutting more than 20 lbs. That's only 7% of his body weight. There are guys at bantamweight who cut literally more than twice that percentage amount. And I don't think Francis is as heavy as 270. Rumble and Conor are both different situations. I never suggested they'd make those cuts again. Just because they might not, it doesn't make my point about Francis not being as heavy as you think wrong.
   
4. You suggested that we might need a new weight class. I'm saying the thinness of the division alone makes that a bad suggestion.

 

[Ragnus]

1. I'm not arguing semantics. I'm responding to your meaning, not your words. I'm stating that I think that what you believe is wrong. Most fans don't understand the first point I've made. You haven't demonstrated that you do. Your suggestion that we need a 230 lbs division demonstrates that you don't. Eddie Alvarez cuts more weight than Conor at lightweight. Yet Conor has the more advantageous dimensions in that matchup.
2. That there are worse examples means everything. If you're making the point that there's a size disparity between heavyweight to such an extent that a new weight class is necessary, pick a better example than this. Stipe is one of the biggest heavyweights on the roster.
3. Francis could weigh in the 250's again. It's not like he's as lean as most fighters from lower weight classes. He could lose less than 5% of his body fat and be back in that range. Even if he didn't do that, he'd still be capable of cutting to 250. A 270 lbs heavyweight with as much muscle as Francis has is easily capable of cutting more than 20 lbs. That's only 7% of his body weight. There are guys at bantamweight who cut literally more than twice that percentage amount. And I don't think Francis is as heavy as 270. Rumble and Conor are both different situations. I never suggested they'd make those cuts again. Just because they might not, it doesn't make my point about Francis not being as heavy as you think wrong.
   
4. You suggested that we might need a new weight class. I'm saying the thinness of the division alone makes that a bad suggestion.

1. Just because you cut more doesn't mean you weight more, conor weighed more on that fight night and you and I know both that and ill talk about this more in another point that ill make
2. Do you not understand hypotheticals, my whole argument look through my comments is that if there were more 265pounders that didnt require the use of PED's and weren't just blowing up to ridiculous weights but rather could sit at 265pounders and be naturally athletic and flexible there could be concern that the 230pounders could no longer compete.
3. Yeah he could but it would be hazardous to his health im talking about weightcuts that you could do without having to lose muscle mass. I think he'd have to drop muscle mass to make 250pounds. He is as lean as most fighters from lower weight classes I guarantee he would have a lower body fat percentage than about 80% of the lower weightclasses due to the amount of muscle he hass. The lower weight-classes have the appearance of looking leaner because they are dehydrated so there skin is tight against their muscles. Only 7% of his bodyweight hahaah, 7% is a fucking lot. These bantamweights give the illusion of cutting a lot of weight but in reality they wouldn't get as heavy out of fights if there weren't weight-cutting the only reason they weightcut so hard is because they have that opportunity unlike the heavyweight division where it usually doesnt require a weightcut. Remove the weightcutting (water and fat cutting) from bantam weight fighters and make them cut 7% of their bodyweight! they wouldnt be able to do it!
4. As mentioned before I suggested the introduction of a new weightclass if we get more heavyweights similar to francis ngannou

 

[executionermma]

That's exactly what he was, a lumbering, giant brawler, who had decent reflexes and decent technique for his size. Badr Hari is huge...dont sit here and pretend that most of his opponents were Hari's size, most were much smaller. Also don't sit here and pretend that Semmy wasn't 2 - 3 TIMES larger than most of his opponents. Dude made guys who were 6'2, 6'3 look like midgets.

The guy on the right in this pic is 6'4 btw.

View attachment 318297


You want to talk about skill? Hoost won the GP just as many times as Schilt, but instead of being 2x bigger than his opponents, he was usually SMALLER.

That's skill, not size difference.

Never said most of them had Hari's size, my point is that the difference between him and Hari, who is 6'6 or at least 6'5, wasn't that much. Against some guys hee was like 80 lbs heavier, but thats the minority of them. Against the majority of the elite guys he fought he was like 40-50 lbs heavier.

And as i said, being that big has it's problems like lack of speed and smoothly movement, otherwise don't you think other guys 6'7+ would be as acomplished in cases like Choi Hong-Man, Young-Hyun Kim etc?
Hoost is talented, so is Semmy. Difference is Semmy never lost to a bum like Sapp.

2-3 times? LMAO are you a Conor fan?

 

[djason1988]

I like Stipe, one of the nicest guys in the UFC roster. But I feel sorry for whats about to happen to him.

Stipe looked shook af through out the presser.

God, I hate these comments. Pro fighters don't get "shook", barring a particularly traumatic injury. Much less UFC champs.

 

[Ananth]

God, I hate these comments. Pro fighters don't get "shook", barring a particularly traumatic injury. Much less UFC champs.

How do you explain Bisping ducking Romero for a year and half? Sometimes a contender rises up, that the champion realizes that his title is in big trouble.

Doesn't mean Bisping is afraid of Romero, or Stipe is afraid of Ngannou. They would fight without a notice if there were no consequences. But title implications and stuff will run through your mind. Stipe seemed like a man whose days are numbered as champ.

 

[johncola]

1. Just because you cut more doesn't mean you weight more, conor weighed more on that fight night and you and I know both that and ill talk about this more in another point that ill mark
2. Do you not understand hypotheticals, my whole argument look through my comments is that if there were more 265pounders that didnt require the use of PED's and weren't just blowing up to ridiculous weights but rather could sit at 265pounders and be naturally athletic and flexible there could be concern that the 230pounders could no longer compete.
3. Yeah he could but it would be hazardous to his health im talking about weightcuts that you could do without having to lose muscle mass. I think he'd have to drop muscle mass to make 250pounds. He is as lean as most fighters from lower weight classes I guarantee he would have a lower body fat percentage than about 80% of the lower weightclasses due to the amount of muscle he hass. This lwoer weight-classes have the appearance of looking leaner because they are dehydrated so there skin is tight against their muscles. Only 7% of his bodyweight hahaah, 7% is a fucking lot. These bantamweights give the illusion of cutting a lot of weight but in reality they wouldn't get as heavy out of fights if there weren't weight-cutting the only reason they weightcut so hard is because they have that opportunity unlike the heavyweight division where it usually doesnt require a weightcut. Remove the weightcutting (water and fat cutting) from bantam weight fighters and make them cut 7% of their bodyweight! they wouldnt be able to do it!
4. As mentioned before I suggested the introduction of a new weightclass if we get more heavyweights similar to francis ngannou

1. You didn't respond to most of what I said. You're clearly struggling with this. Normally the one who cuts more will weigh more. The only way they wouldn't would be if they failed to fully rehydrate for some reason. But almost all the time the one who cuts more also weighs more. Why else wouldn't they? But all of that shit is a new subject and totally besides the point; the one you've totally drifted away from. I'm saying you neither understand the purpose of weight classes, nor accurately value the importance of the different size properties in a style matchup.
2. Respond to what I said. What the fuck are you going on about? You've barely been coherent in our discussion, so do you really think I wanna go through reading an entire thread of your drivel? Especially when I don't know the purpose? Ultimately all I'm doing is answering the question you posed at the outset -- are you being ridiculous? Yes, you are, for the reasons I've given. You cited Stipe/Francis as a reason to create a 230 lb division, right now. All my points are in response to that.
3. No, as I've explained, he wouldn't have to drop muscle mass to make 250 lbs. He could easily cut water to get to 250 lbs, and even lower. I'm also suggesting that he has more body fat than some fighters at lower weight classes, and that, were he to lose some, he could even make 230 lbs. He weighed 252 once and I think he could again. A 252 lb fighter with that much muscle can cut 22 lbs (9% of total weight) of water. There's lots of water in muscles which is why heavily muscled fighters can cut a lot of weight. Only 7%, yes. That's low compared to other UFC fighters. Look here. Most fighters cut over 10%. Again, you've gone off the trails with your last sentence: "remove weightcutting" AND "make them cut"? What?
4. That's not what you said in your OP. I suggest you correct it if that's not what you believe.

 

[executionermma]

How do you explain Bisping ducking Romero for a year and half? Sometimes a contender rises up, that the champion realizes that his title is in big trouble.

Doesn't mean Bisping is afraid of Romero, or Stipe is afraid of Ngannou. They would fight without a notice if there were no consequences. But title implications and stuff will run through your mind. Stipe seemed like a man whose days are numbered as champ.

No, he didn't. He looked like someone who doesn't care who he is fighting. He accepted to fight Ngannou and didn't had anything to say against it. That's just you and other idiots being hyped about Ngannou and his KOs over 2 glass chin guys in Arlovski and Overeem.

 

[djason1988]

How do you explain Bisping ducking Romero for a year and half? Sometimes a contender rises up, that the champion realizes that his title is in big trouble.

Doesn't mean Bisping is afraid of Romero, or Stipe is afraid of Ngannou. They would fight without a notice if there were no consequences. But title implications and stuff will run through your mind. Stipe seemed like a man whose days are numbered as champ.

Ok, I'll give ya that. The word "shook" makes me think scared. Pro fighters don't fear a match. But sure, they can look at a guy and think he's a bad matchup, and maybe not wanna risk it.

 

[franklinstower]

Judging from that clip... Stipe gives zero fucks about Ngannou's physique.

Oh no that cant be true. Have you not read all the posts saying he looks shook?

 

[Ananth]

No, he didn't. He looked like someone who doesn't care who he is fighting. He accepted to fight Ngannou and didn't had anything to say against it. That's just you and other idiots being hyped about Ngannou and his KOs over 2 glass chin guys in Arlovski and Overeem.

Look at your DP and siggy and you have the audacity to call others stupid. GTFO.

 

[LZD]

Lol @ nganou being the best striker ever. ROFL

 

[Fight Professor]

Stipe is not that much smaller. He is more technical, more experienced and has KO power.

 

[MPD-Psycho]

I think we already have too many divisions as is. If anything HW should just be open weight.

 

[Karelinator]

Ngannou was like ~252 against Arlovski.

He came in heavier against Reem, but was way lighter before, so claim that he could not cut below 250 is extremely dubious.

No evidence he is anywhere near 270 too.

 

[PivotPunch]

This would destroy HW and weaken LHW even further.

More weight classe are the last thign MMA needs and could destroy the sport as we know it. If ther eis a 225lbs class everyone up to 250lbs could make it through pure dehydration. Considering that most HWs aren't lean just about anyone could make it.

Ngannou could probably make 225lbs if he tried.

Also Ngannou and stipe are pretty much the same size both the same height and Ngannou is only about 20lbs heavier that's nothing at HW

 

[Quietus]

HW should be split into natty chubby dadbod division, and hulking behemoth Roidzilla division. Let the guys who want to juice fight eachother in exhibitions/money fights, let everyone else fight for a belt.

 

[truthisfreedom]

Never said most of them had Hari's size, my point is that the difference between him and Hari, who is 6'6 or at least 6'5, wasn't that much. Against some guys hee was like 80 lbs heavier, but thats the minority of them. Against the majority of the elite guys he fought he was like 40-50 lbs heavier.

And as i said, being that big has it's problems like lack of speed and smoothly movement, otherwise don't you think other guys 6'7+ would be as acomplished in cases like Choi Hong-Man, Young-Hyun Kim etc?
Hoost is talented, so is Semmy. Difference is Semmy never lost to a bum like Sapp.

2-3 times? LMAO are you a Conor fan?

Obviously 2 - 3 times is a bit of hyperbole. But the fact remains that Schit was much bigger than EVERY one of his opponents, by at least 50 - 60 lbs of muscle, not to mention that he was much bigger physically also. TJ Dillishaw is about 50-60 lbs lighter than Jon Jones....both are skilled fighters, but how would that fight work out for TJ?

Schit is a slightly above average kickboxer, who had decent coordination for being 7 ft, 300 lbs. He was also chinny and got rocked many times. Would have been even more if his arms werent as long as most peoples' legs. He won GPs with 25% skillset, and 75% being much bigger than his competition and out weighing them by 50-60 lbs more muscle, sometimes even more. How many GPs would Schilt have won if he was the same size as his competition?

 

[bufetadanacara]

I'd rather see fewer weight classes than more.

HW should be open

 

[executionermma]

Obviously 2 - 3 times is a bit of hyperbole. But the fact remains that Schit was much bigger than EVERY one of his opponents, by at least 50 - 60 lbs of muscle, not to mention that he was much bigger physically also. TJ Dillishaw is about 50-60 lbs lighter than Jon Jones....both are skilled fighters, but how would that fight work out for TJ?

Schit is a slightly above average kickboxer, who had decent coordination for being 7 ft, 300 lbs. He was also chinny and got rocked many times. Would have been even more if his arms werent as long as most peoples' legs. He won GPs with 25% skillset, and 75% being much bigger than his competition and out weighing them by 50-60 lbs more muscle, sometimes even more. How many GPs would Schilt have won if he was the same size as his competition?

50-60 to a BW is almost 40% of their weight. To a 240 lbs man this is something like 25%, stupid comparison. Very different. Jon Jones is much bigger than Dillashaw, Semmy-his opponent difference isn't even close to that.

Semmy had excellent coordination for a guy that tall, no one ever had such smooth footwork being 6'7+
Just look the way Struve walks in the cage. He has no defense and part of that it's because of footwork.

If Semmy wasn't 6'11 he would move like a flyweight and would be even more versatile, also faster and more flexibile. Semmy is the man, he is one of the best skilled karateca ever. Ask anyone who knows his shit about that style.