Herb Dean's "pat on the back" in Cain/JDS III

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Rex Kwon Do, Oct 20, 2013.

  1. Rex Kwon Do

    Rex Kwon Do ál-ḥámdúlílláh

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    Pretty much everyone seems to accept that when Herb tapped Cain's right shoulder, that it was a sign of him being close to stopping to fight. However, he was tentative and seeing that Junior was still alive, he let it continue. Right?

    I'm not sure any more that that's what happened. Let's look at the gif:

    [​IMG]

    After tumbling to the mat for the second time, JDS gets up. Look at Cain's right arm and hand placement while JDS is doing that; leaning into the cage, perhaps even grabbing the fence. Then look at how Herb specifically reaches to tap Cain on that side, not on the side closest to him (which is the left side). Why would he make such an awkward movement if he just wanted to get Cain to stop the fight? Why not grab/push/tap Cain on the side of his body closest to Herb, which is the left side?

    I think he tapped him specifically on the right shoulder because he thought Cain was grabbing the fence in order to get more leverage into his punches, which of course is against the rules. Simple as that. It wasn't him being indecisive about stopping the fight, just him seeing what he thought was a fence grab and trying to get Cain to stop it. Refs sometimes tap or pull a fighter's hands off the fence when they see them grab it.

    I don't think this is a tin-foil conspiracy. Are there are other angles people have of Tapgate? Has Herb spoken about it? Until he does, I think I'm leaning towards that explanation as opposed to the "he was going to stop the fight" one.
     
  2. DCsharkz

    DCsharkz Blue Belt

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    I thought I heard him yell something about the fence during that moment as well.
     
  3. Omni**

    Omni** Brown Belt

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    i heard he was giving cain props for the knock down
     
  4. JonesBones

    JonesBones Excuse my contraflow

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    It's one of those situations where you want to make an action, but change your mind mid way. I think he probably meant to grab Cain, but right at that point, decided not to, so just patted him instead.
     
  5. Rex Kwon Do

    Rex Kwon Do ál-ḥámdúlílláh

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    Grab him for what purpose, to stop the fight, or to get him to stop grabbing the fence?
     
  6. Contraction**

    Contraction** Banned Banned

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    Herb is the best ref in MMA BAR NONE....

    He was simply telling him to let go of the fence without wanting to interrupt the fight or potentially cause Cain to think it was over....


    Regardless, the fight could have been stopped
     
  7. CannonsHeel

    CannonsHeel Blue Belt

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    Great eyes TS. Bump so that the Cain nuthuggers see that Herb wasn't actually going to stop the fight at all. Cain is a chronic fence grabber as we saw last night again. He did it in the Brock fight as well.
     
  8. Ziggyjuarez

    Ziggyjuarez Blue Belt

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    The way he ran over makes it look like he wanted to stop it.
     
  9. Jocke

    Jocke Black Belt

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    Does it really matter?

    Moreover I think he thought about stopping the fight because JDS stumbled like a drunkard who just got punched, but then he saw JDS stand up and changed his mind.
     
  10. RoyCisneros

    RoyCisneros Black Belt

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    i think he was going to stop it, but then changed his mind. IMO the fight should be stopped as soon as the ref touches a fighter.
     
  11. Rex Kwon Do

    Rex Kwon Do ál-ḥámdúlílláh

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    If he wanted to stop it, why awkwardly reach towards the arm that was leaning against/potentially grabbing the fence? Would he push or pull Cain from the side closest to him?

    To me it looks like there was something specific about Cain's right arm that had Herb's attention, and what that most likely was was a fence grab, or what looked to Herb to be a fence grab. Because of that he wanted to get him to stop it. Just seems like way too awkward a movement to be an aborted fight stoppage.
     
  12. Strychnine

    Strychnine Steel Belt

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    I agree with the top part of your statement completely.

    However I think that JDS still had a shot (however miniscule) at winning and was intelligently defending. Also, if Herb had stopped the fight at that point, it would've been considered highly controversial. It was still a 100% legit stoppage when it happened though.
     
  13. Rex Kwon Do

    Rex Kwon Do ál-ḥámdúlílláh

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    That's how I'm inclined to see it at this point.
     
  14. jefferz

    jefferz Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    It looks more like he was in the wrong position and instead of circling around Cain to stop the fence grab he tapped on his shoulder. Cain immediately lets go of the fence after Herb taps him.
     
  15. El Magnifico

    El Magnifico Orange Belt

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    Yeah, I thought he was telling stop grabbing fence.
     
  16. JJ Glo

    JJ Glo Orange Belt

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    You know what TS, it makes sense. I didn't think of that possibility. Herb tapped Cain on the shoulder, he didn't put his hand on his shoulder as if trying to pull Cain off, then deciding to let it go, and it did look like Cain was holding the fence with that hand from the angle shown.

    I don't understand why people keep saying the fight should have been stopped in the third. JDS was always moving and trying to get up during that assault. In my eyes, the fight wasn't even close to being stopped.
     
  17. BuffaloEmperor

    BuffaloEmperor Brown Belt

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    lol @ "tapgate" .
    I think herb did that kinda for a fence warning.
     
  18. ALAN PARTRIDGE

    ALAN PARTRIDGE NO LONGER REGISTERED

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    No he was about to stop it
     
  19. Jocke

    Jocke Black Belt

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    He was probably going to put his right arm over Cains right shoulder and his left arm under Cains left arm and clasp his hands together and pull Cain backwards, but he decided against it half way and only the right hand went and stayed.

    I still dont see what this has to do with anything because even if he was trying to tell him not to hold the fence it has nothing to do with the fight. So in that regard this thread is essentially about nothing.
     
  20. CleverNameEh

    CleverNameEh All out of bubblegum

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    Huh, interesting.

    I think you are indeed correct TS. Good eye.

    I didn't notice that at all live in the fight, but it's pretty clear in that particular gif that:

    a) Cain leans and his right hand against the fence for support during that scramble

    and

    b) Herb goes way out of his way to tap that shoulder specifically



    Herb Dean and BJM are by far the two best ref's in the biz. Their ref IQ is off the charts. Goats.
     

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