Helio Gracie's Black Belt

[Leify]

Kids sparring with adults is pretty common. I assume it would have been common back then too. The adults just hold back a little to let the kid work some. I do it with the kids' class if I'm around for it.

By spar I mean rolling full resistance.

What you're describing would fall into the other part you quoted from me, in my perspective.

 

[dmwalking]

This thread is hilarious.

 

[nefti]

Leave Eli manning alone

two superbowl rings. FU

 

[Fightshopca]

Very entertaining thread indeed.

 

[MickCollins]

With Helio for instance, he learned BJJ from watching his brother but had never actually trained himself

Anyone who believes that probably also believes the Easter Bunny will be bringing chocolate to people soon.

 

[giatinu]

You dont know what techniques helio gracie taught that first student. Maybe it was a basic armbar from guard. Im sure he can remember that from just watching and listening to his brothers. Couldve been a scissor sweep. Damn guys we're not talking about berimbolo or the vaporizer. You guys gotta think a little harder before you spread nonsense.

 

[lts5025]

helio has a RED belt

he was also a judo black belt when he fought kimura

He was? Who did he train judo under? Who awarded him dan rank in judo?

 

[lts5025]

Obviously Helio must have learned by actual training. I don't think anyone seriously believes he became an expert by watching.

That aside, I always laugh when someone posts the picture of a physically fit Helio in a wrestling singlet. As if posting a picture of him looking fit after having trained for a number of years, somehow implies that he was fit before having trained. Is it impossible to believe that he was frail and sickly as a youth, before having trained, and that as he got older and started training he became fit and healthy? Sort of like a Teddy Roosevelt situation? That's a far more reasonable claim to make. Obviously he was very fit when he was in his competitive years. That doesn't mean he was in the same kind of shape when he was 15, before doing Jiu-Jitsu.

If you're referring to my post, please point out where I stated or implied that Helio wasn't a sickly frail kid when he was younger. The poster I was responding to was answering the question of Helio EVER being able to roll.

All I stated is that Helio clearly either was fit or became fit and that he obviously was capable of rolling as opposed to just observing, as evidenced by the picture.

For what it's worth, I think the GA claims of Helio's initial frailty and his later lack of physical capacity are completely exaggerated, but I have no evidence of it.

From Reyla Gracie's book:

Helio, realizing that jiu-jitsu was the only thing that could have a any impact on Carlos' opinion of him, began watching the lessons, trying to understand and assimilate to the utmost the logic of fighting [tentando entender e assimilar ao m

 

[SagaMask]

You can put yourself a black belt as long it's in your own martial art, otherwise you need approbation from other practitioners because by wearing a black belt in say Gracie Jiu-Jitsu you represent them, and if you suck, everyone will say that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu sucks and that will make them look like fools among other things.

But i feel belt systems encourage cockiness, if people were recognized by their skills alone it will be a lot fairer, that's why i like MMA, no belt, no traditions, no bullshit, you just fight.

 

[lechien]

You can put yourself a black belt as long it's in your own martial art, otherwise you need approbation from other practitioners because by wearing a black belt in say Gracie Jiu-Jitsu you represent them, and if you suck, everyone will say that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu sucks and that will make them look like fools among other things.

But i feel belt systems encourage cockiness, if people were recognized by their skills alone it will be a lot fairer, that's why i like MMA, no belt, no traditions, no bullshit, you just fight.

Well, I think the Gracie challenge stil apply to any Gracie school. So go and challenge them to a vale Tudo fight and post the video on f12.

 

[Balto]

actually in GJJ, it was white belt, blue belt and then darker blue belt for instructor.

Then they switch to the Judo system later on because they thought it will be good to turn it into a sport instead of just a fighting system.

This is the right answer, but it seems to have been missed.

The concept of BJJ black belt did not even exist when Helio was fighting. Helio wore a dark blue belt during that time.

The whole belt system was invented relatively late in BJJ history (I think 1960s). It was created when the first BJJ federation was established. This also created the first BJJ tournaments.

So Helio was promoted by the federation at the time of its creation. I think he was promoted to red belt then. So he probably skipped black, and he did not promote himself as he was not the driving force behind the creation of the federation. In fact, he had opposed it for a quite a while. This is why you see the photo of Helio in very old age wearing the dark blue belt again. He ended up feeling like the creation of BJJ tournaments and the belt system was a mistake.

 

[Balto]

In Judo, the Kodokan records have Helio at third dan. So that promotion is legitimate too.

Just trying to dispel this notion that Helio tied on a black belt and started pulling guard on anyone who questioned where that came from. All his promotions were pretty legit as far as I can tell.

 

[Diablo Ryu**]

Helio gracies side just annoys the fuck out of me. Pisses me off I have to bow to him.

 

[lechien]

Helio gracies side just annoys the fuck out of me. Pisses me off I have to bow to him.

That is pretty funny.

In a judo dojo, we have a location in the front wall called shomen. Spelling could be wrong.
In that location, you can find booze, pictures of students that passed away etc.. It is like a spiritual shrine.
It is a throw back of Shinto religion that is based on the belief that everything has a spirit etc compare to zen.
We do not have of Kano in that shrine.
But we do now to the shrine before and after class. There is a bottle of johny walker however.

 

[georgejjr]

That is pretty funny.

In a judo dojo, we have a location in the front wall called shomen. Spelling could be wrong.
In that location, you can find booze, pictures of students that passed away etc.. It is like a spiritual shrine.
It is a throw back of Shinto religion that is based on the belief that everything has a spirit etc compare to zen.
We do not have of Kano in that shrine.
But we do now to the shrine before and after class. There is a bottle of johny walker however.

Johny Walker? We have Glenlivet :icon_chee

I wonder if Scotch is the bottle of choice for dojo's? Though most of the Japanese competitors I've been to the bar with drank beer ...

 

[lechien]

Johny Walker? We have Glenlivet :icon_chee

I wonder if Scotch is the bottle of choice for dojo's? Though most of the Japanese competitors I've been to the bar with drank beer ...

They have also couple of sake bottles.

But yes, we have a beer fridge (full of craft beers) for after training. :icon_chee

 

[Wanderlei Industries]

Helio Gracie invented leverage, grappling, and the Earth.

I bow to my Brazilian overlord.

 

[lts5025]

In Judo, the Kodokan records have Helio at third dan.

People like to trot this little gem out when there is no evidence for it. The only sources for Helio having any judo rank is a book by Robert Hill and Kimura's autobiography. Hill's book claims that Kodokan records show Helio as 3rd dan, however there are no sources listed for this claim and I have found no other corroborating sources. Hill's book is pretty thin on scholarship all around.

Kimura's "My Judo" refers to "Helio Gracie, 6th dan" but it could have been a mistranslation of Kimura's original Japanese, a misunderstanding on Kimura's part, or, shockingly, a confabulation on the part of the Gracies. Either way, no one has produced a copy of Kodokan records that mention Helio Gracie.

Several people who would know better than anyone on this board, including Rorion, George Medhi and Francisco Mansour have flat out said that Helio never studied judo at all.

If Helio did study judo, who was this mysterious Japanese judoka who taught Helio for years and years and has remained completely anonymous?

Helio talked a lot of shit about judo and absolutely believed in his brand of jiu-jitsu to his core. I find it hard to believe that he'd go train judo in secret, be dedicated enough to earn a 3rd or 6th dan, but still bad mouth it in public.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

In Judo, the Kodokan records have Helio at third dan. So that promotion is legitimate too.

Just trying to dispel this notion that Helio tied on a black belt and started pulling guard on anyone who questioned where that came from. All his promotions were pretty legit as far as I can tell.

When I spoke to the Kodokan re: Maeda I was told that it is the official position of the Kodokan that this person does not exist. Whatever that means.

It's not clear that Maeda ever gave Carlos any rank at all.

It's not clear who promoted Helio.

It's worth noting that the people peddling the idea that jiu-jitsu can be mastered by just watching were in the habit of selling jiu-jitsu instructional videos.

 

[Balto]

People like to trot this little gem out when there is no evidence for it. The only sources for Helio having any judo rank is a book by Robert Hill and Kimura's autobiography. Hill's book claims that Kodokan records show Helio as 3rd dan, however there are no sources listed for this claim and I have found no other corroborating sources. Hill's book is pretty thin on scholarship all around.

Kimura's "My Judo" refers to "Helio Gracie, 6th dan" but it could have been a mistranslation of Kimura's original Japanese, a misunderstanding on Kimura's part, or, shockingly, a confabulation on the part of the Gracies. Either way, no one has produced a copy of Kodokan records that mention Helio Gracie.

Several people who would know better than anyone on this board, including Rorion, George Medhi and Francisco Mansour have flat out said that Helio never studied judo at all.

If Helio did study judo, who was this mysterious Japanese judoka who taught Helio for years and years and has remained completely anonymous?

Helio talked a lot of shit about judo and absolutely believed in his brand of jiu-jitsu to his core. I find it hard to believe that he'd go train judo in secret, be dedicated enough to earn a 3rd or 6th dan, but still bad mouth it in public.

Yeah I was taking that book as the source. I will consider your criticism of that source in the future.

As far as not studying Judo at all, that seems pretty unlikely as what Maeda taught Carlos was Basically Just Judo. Obviously things grew apart over the years, but it's pretty clear that both BJJ and modern Judo come from the same common ancestor. They have a lot in common -- the judogi as a uniform, the aversion to leg locks, same type of randori, elimination of strikes in general training, etc.

Especially early on, there was an effort to just get the Gracies to officially adopt the Judo rules and join up there instead of just doing their own thing. So it seems they were generally recognized as having the same type of experience. I don't think they would need a mysterious Japanese Judoka (other than Maeda) in the picture. What they were doing just from Maeda alone could easily have counted.