Helio Gracie's Black Belt

rorions side, albeit helios side is full of it... helio couldnt do 1 push up (picture of him in what appears to be a single set appears, and a pretty fit dude) helio was the smallest one (picture appears and helio is by far the tallest in the picture) helio this helio that, come the fuck on, most of that was just made up bs... im sure helio did contribute a ton to jiu jitsu, just like his brothers etc etc, but he is not an alien, and like ryo said, you cannot learn grappling by watching...
 
BJJ_Rage said:
rorions side, albeit helios side is full of it... helio couldnt do 1 push up (picture of him in what appears to be a single set appears, and a pretty fit dude) helio was the smallest one (picture appears and helio is by far the tallest in the picture) helio this helio that, come the fuck on, most of that was just made up bs... im sure helio did contribute a ton to jiu jitsu, just like his brothers etc etc, but he is not an alien, and like ryo said, you cannot learn grappling by watching...
Click to expand...

but plenty of people on carlos side say the same thing... can't all be wrong.
 
But the point is still that he didn't promote himself, but was automatically given a black (or maybe even red to start with) by the governing body of BJJ when they established the belt system. Originally, the belts were there only to demarcate between the students and the instructors. Helio is said to have stopped wearing his red belt at the end of his life, and to have gone back to the original blue.
 
No one has ever claimed that he went into Vale Tudo matches without live training, or that he couldn't do a push up. The Gracie myth-making is excessive enough, there's no need for you to exaggerate further.
 
helio has a RED belt

he was also a judo black belt when he fought kimura
 
Obviously Helio must have learned by actual training. I don't think anyone seriously believes he became an expert by watching.

That aside, I always laugh when someone posts the picture of a physically fit Helio in a wrestling singlet. As if posting a picture of him looking fit after having trained for a number of years, somehow implies that he was fit before having trained. Is it impossible to believe that he was frail and sickly as a youth, before having trained, and that as he got older and started training he became fit and healthy? Sort of like a Teddy Roosevelt situation? That's a far more reasonable claim to make. Obviously he was very fit when he was in his competitive years. That doesn't mean he was in the same kind of shape when he was 15, before doing Jiu-Jitsu.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
, I always laugh when someone posts the picture of a physically fit Helio in a wrestling singlet. As if posting a picture of him looking fit after having trained for a number of years, somehow implies that he was fit before having trained. Is it impossible to believe that he was frail and sickly as a youth, before having trained, and that as he got older and started training he became fit and healthy? Sort of like a Teddy Roosevelt situation? That's a far more reasonable claim to make. Obviously he was very fit when he was in his competitive years. That doesn't mean he was in the same kind of shape when he was 15, before doing Jiu-Jitsu.
Click to expand...

this makes the most sense . .. I mean how many people here on this board have had their physical fitness improve greatly because of BJJ? heaps I sure..
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
Obviously Helio must have learned by actual training. I don't think anyone seriously believes he became an expert by watching.
Click to expand...

Well, thats the thing... they DO believe that (atleast that's what they claim) that he did become an expert by watching. If you are able to teach the classes better than the teacher himself without any training... wouldn't you say that makes you an expert?

One day, when Helio was 16 years old, a student showed up for class when Carlos was not around. Helio, who had memorized all the techniques from watching his brothers teach, offered to start the class. When the class was over, Carlos showed up and apologized for his delay. The student answered, "No problem. I enjoyed the class with Helio very much and, if you don't mind, I'd like to continue learning from him." Carlos agreed, and Helio became an instructor
Click to expand...

Source - Gracie Academy website

So a sick kid watching class for abit, and then somehow knows how to apply all the techniques in an effective manner without ever having stepped on the mat. What's even more baffling, is his ability to understand and teach the techniques better than the instructor Carlos, who had many hours of mat time at that point. Quite baffling how Helio was able to this.... :rolleyes:


That aside, I always laugh when someone posts the picture of a physically fit Helio in a wrestling singlet. As if posting a picture of him looking fit after having trained for a number of years, somehow implies that he was fit before having trained. Is it impossible to believe that he was frail and sickly as a youth, before having trained, and that as he got older and started training he became fit and healthy? Sort of like a Teddy Roosevelt situation? That's a far more reasonable claim to make. Obviously he was very fit when he was in his competitive years. That doesn't mean he was in the same kind of shape when he was 15, before doing Jiu-Jitsu.
Click to expand...

It seems to me they are still making that claim in a way.

Helio soon realized that due to his frail physique, most of the techniques he had learned from watching Carlos teach were particularly difficult for him to execute. Eager to make the techniques work for him, he began modifying them to accommodate his weak body. Emphasizing the use of leverage and timing over strength and speed, Helio modified virtually all of the techniques and, through trial and error, created Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Click to expand...

Source - Gracie Academy Website

Their whole angle is that Helio completely changed all the techniques he learned because they required lots of strength (that Carlos was a massive guy you know). So his techniques are for people who are weak and not strong. Do you ever see a picture of Helio looking strong and fit on any of the Gracie websites. Especially Gracie academy. No, they are promoting a physically weak man who overcomes his opponents (because they all must me stronger than him because he's so weak and frail). I've never seen a Gracie acknowledge that Helio was a actually a strong, well conditioned man as is pretty obvious.

Oh and... I threw this little gem in just because i had never seen it before and it was so ridiculous. :D

His victory against Kato qualified him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, the best Jiu-Jitsu fighter Japan has ever produced, and who outweighed Helio by almost 80 pounds. Kimura won the match but was so impressed with Helio’s techniques that he asked Helio to go teach in Japan claiming the techniques Helio presented during their bout did not exist in Japan. It was the recognition by the world’s best to Helio’s dedication to the refinement of the art.
Click to expand...

:icon_chee lol what a joke... what part of Helio's technique did not exist in Japan? Kimura was a guy who was known to train with the university clubs pretty frequently... i doubt there was anything Helio did that he hadn't seen.
 
Last edited:
SuperSuperRambo said:
Obviously Helio must have learned by actual training. I don't think anyone seriously believes he became an expert by watching.

That aside, I always laugh when someone posts the picture of a physically fit Helio in a wrestling singlet. As if posting a picture of him looking fit after having trained for a number of years, somehow implies that he was fit before having trained. Is it impossible to believe that he was frail and sickly as a youth, before having trained, and that as he got older and started training he became fit and healthy? Sort of like a Teddy Roosevelt situation? That's a far more reasonable claim to make. Obviously he was very fit when he was in his competitive years. That doesn't mean he was in the same kind of shape when he was 15, before doing Jiu-Jitsu.
Click to expand...

actually, nop.

Well, he couldve been a skinny normal dude, but to say he couldnt do 1 push up, and was frail like glass, no bro, no one with genetics like that would likely turned to be a fit young male, hell in some places, people talk like helio was a midget also... he cleary was not!
 
Ryo said:
:icon_chee lol what a joke... what part of Helio's technique did not exist in Japan? Kimura was a guy who was known to train with the university clubs pretty frequently... i doubt there was anything Helio did that he hadn't seen.
Click to expand...

I wasn't saying that I bought their story on everything, I'm just saying it's reasonable to believe that he was a frail teenager and became a fit young adult through training. I made the Teddy Roosevelt comparison for a well-known example of that sort of thing happening.

The rest is mostly nonsense, but I was pointing out that it's silly to post pictures of a fit adult to show that he was a frail teenager. I know plenty of people who were frail teenagers and became fit adults through physical training.
 
Helio was the first Gracie University student and learned by watching others. ;-)
 
Rudimentary timeline:

1917-1921: Carlos trains under Maeda. Carlos supposedly passes Maeda's teachings onto his brother during this time. Helio is aged 4-8.
1925: Carlos opens his gym. Helio is 12.
1928: Helio has the infamous private lesson. That's possibly up to ~11 years of Helio watching instruction. Helio is 16.

-Was Helio frail and weak? Probably. Helio was a child/teenager during this entire span of time. All of his brothers, except George, were at least 7 years older than him. A child/teenager usually seems frail and weak next to grown men.
-Could Helio pick up technical details after watching his family train BJJ for 11 years, since he was 4? Probably.
-Was Helio going to be sparring with grown men as a child? Doubtful
-Was Helio going to try to emulate his big brothers and attempt to do the same things as them, thus having hands on experience with techniques while not necessarily sparring? Probably.

That's probably close to the reality of the situation.
 
The founder of a martial art is by definition a 10th degree black belt (i.e. red belt)
 
Leify said:
Rudimentary timeline:

1917-1921: Carlos trains under Maeda. Carlos supposedly passes Maeda's teachings onto his brother during this time. Helio is aged 4-8.
1925: Carlos opens his gym. Helio is 12.
1928: Helio has the infamous private lesson. That's possibly up to ~11 years of Helio watching instruction. Helio is 16.

-Was Helio frail and weak? Probably. Helio was a child/teenager during this entire span of time. All of his brothers, except George, were at least 7 years older than him. A child/teenager usually seems frail and weak next to grown men.
-Could Helio pick up technical details after watching his family train BJJ for 11 years, since he was 4? Probably.
-Was Helio going to be sparring with grown men as a child? Doubtful
-Was Helio going to try to emulate his big brothers and attempt to do the same things as them, thus having hands on experience with techniques while not necessarily sparring? Probably.

That's probably close to the reality of the situation.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the breakdown, interesting.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
actually, nop.

Well, he couldve been a skinny normal dude, but to say he couldnt do 1 push up, and was frail like glass, no bro, no one with genetics like that would likely turned to be a fit young male, hell in some places, people talk like helio was a midget also... he cleary was not!
Click to expand...

Back in those days medicine and health were a lot different... If a child was frail doctors probably ordered them to stay inactive as possible (very different from today) and the parents would probably worry and give the child a stigma growing up that he was sick and weak...


Also, to this day there are many illness/diseases/ health issues that effect children that can lessen or completely disappear as the child hit puberty or adulthood.
 
Leify said:
-Was Helio going to be sparring with grown men as a child? Doubtful
-Was Helio going to try to emulate his big brothers and attempt to do the same things as them, thus having hands on experience with techniques while not necessarily sparring? Probably.

That's probably close to the reality of the situation.
Click to expand...

Kids sparring with adults is pretty common. I assume it would have been common back then too. The adults just hold back a little to let the kid work some. I do it with the kids' class if I'm around for it.
 
Ryo said:
It amazes me that the stipid myth of Helio teaching himself by watching still persists today under people who actually train. You can't lean to grapple by watching.
Click to expand...

I don't know. There are millions of guys in the United States and Canada who just by watching the NFL every weekend have learned to be better quarterbacks than anyone currently playing :icon_twis
 
georgejjr said:
I don't know. There are millions of guys in the United States and Canada who just by watching the NFL every weekend have learned to be better quarterbacks than anyone currently playing :icon_twis
Click to expand...

Leave Eli manning alone
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,280,840
Messages
58,321,193
Members
175,999
Latest member
xande.fight

Share this page

Back
Top