HB's guide to Krav-Maga.

[aceventura]

I think you and bas would agree, should fight no matter what..
the chance of you living when you don't fight are ZERO, but if you fight, it gets in half, 50/50.

 

[peregrine]

I wonder what world you live in where people with any knife training are running around stabbing people at random.

Or any gun training.

Most of these techniques are based on people who are at least somewhat ignorant. Someone who has cornered you and is trying to hurt you doesn't expect you to attack them. There's an element of surprise.

If someone with real gun/knife training is trying to kill you, you're dead. Period.

And you're going to get cut or stabbed whenever you fight anyone with a knife. But would you rather roll over and die?

I disagree with all your sentiments.

"someone who has cornered you...doesn't expect you to attack them" - if someone knows they're about to die, why wouldn't they attack? they already got nothing to lose.

"If someone with real gun/knife ....you're dead period" - there are techniques that will have higher probabilites than others, that is why I suggest you spar them all out and find them to practice.

"would you rather roll over and die?" -
no. Again my suggestion to find the defenses that have better chances than others and practice them. Defenses that do not totally control the weapon will allow the attacker to dislodge your grip and continue to attack you.

 

[ironbismark]

I think you and bas would agree, should fight no matter what..
the chance of you living when you don't fight are ZERO, but if you fight, it gets in half, 50/50.

no one is saying you shouldn't fight. I just believe that your time is better spent in combat sports as it teaches timing, power and how to deal with the adrenaline dump much better than the training methodology of krav maga does. Also we are pointing out that the knife defense that the threadstarter chose to show is fundamentally flawed and dangerous and ineffective in practice. When dealing with a weapon you need to isolate and control the weapon above all other considerations and punching someone in the face and couting on them to be unable to react to this by stabbing you a bunch of times is very unrealistic.

 

[Human Bass]

no one is saying you shouldn't fight. I just believe that your time is better spent in combat sports as it teaches timing, power and how to deal with the adrenaline dump much better than the training methodology of krav maga does. Also we are pointing out that the knife defense that the threadstarter chose to show is fundamentally flawed and dangerous and ineffective in practice. When dealing with a weapon you need to isolate and control the weapon above all other considerations and punching someone in the face and couting on them to be unable to react to this by stabbing you a bunch of times is very unrealistic.

There is isolation and control of the weapon, I said it multiple times, you just ignored to appear smart. Man, even in the video I posted, the guy says "he will try to stab multiple times".

KM focuses on stressful situations and "adrenaline pumps". Or you are going to say that the "adrenaline pump" of being in a ring is higher than the one a person has in a hostage situtation?

Where the best body guards travel to train? It's not Thailand, it's Israel. Could you care to explain why such professionals prefer KM over MT or Judo? Or why armed forces seek the know-how of KM instructors intead of UFC fighters? Must be because they enjoy "unrealistic" stuff.

 

[YeahBee]

TKD is very acrobatic, wrestling relies a lot in raw strengh (not saying there isn't plenty of technique). What I forgot to say is Krav-Maga moves is like improved moves we would by instinct even without training any martial art.

For example, the basic knife defense:

If someone tries to stab you, you naturally flinch and raise your arms above your head. What KM does is to take this natural reaction and just modify it slightly to become an effective defense. Nothing really fancy that you could forget in the heat.

So, KM tries to follow the KISS principle every possible time.

Wrestling is technique,

and who stabs like a cartoon serial killer?

 

[muaythaitechniq]

I'm a firm believer in cross training the combat arts. However, saying MT, Judo or BJJ would allow a person to react to a knife/gun/stick/bottle attack is incorrect. I know how to slip a jab, bob and weave and even escape from a triangle choke. But before KM, I didn't know how to attack a knife or handgun. I will guarantee you, 99.9% of combat arts practitioners wouldn't know how to properly react to a knife attack. And yes, I believe there is a "proper way" to react.

The reaction (defense) to a knife/gun/stick/bottle attack is a skill that has to be trained. Most knife (or any weapon) attacks are going to be a surprise. You rarely see someone displaying the weapon, before the attack. It's always hidden and when you finally see it, its coming straight at you.

Knife attacks are not going to be like this:



It'll be a surprise and dynamic. Like this:



The KM technique incorporates our bodies natural reflex to flinch. If you've ever had something thrown at your head or watched someone getting punched for the first time; it's always the same reaction. The hands come up, the palms face out and they try to protect the head and/or chest.

Have you ever heard of defensive wounds from knife attacks? All at the hands, wrists and forearms.

Here's a perfect example of the flinch response:

KM takes this natural flinch response and turns it into an offensive weapon. The natural flinch response is to turn away from danger or slap/smack danger away. KM tries to teach the body to turn the natural flinch response into an offensive attack. I.e.;

Someone tries to stab you. You naturally lift your arms towards the threat. One hand intercepts the knife. The other arms delivers a blow. After that, both hands secure the knife hand and you continue to attack.

I'm not saying the KM technique is THE way or the ONLY way to react to a knife attack. But I'm a firm believer that it's pretty damn good. These techniques are what is being taught to the IDF, who have been at war for over 60 years. It's really the only technique which has been "battlefield" tested.

 

[ironbismark]

There is isolation and control of the weapon, I said it multiple times, you just ignored to appear smart. Man, even in the video I posted, the guy says "he will try to stab multiple times".
i saw you say it and the guy say it but the techinique does not demonstrate it

KM focuses on stressful situations and "adrenaline pumps". Or you are going to say that the "adrenaline pump" of being in a ring is higher than the one a person has in a hostage situtation?
no i'm saying talking about it doesn't help and sports combat while doesnt give you the same degree of adrenaline at least you get some. I get the feeling you have never been in a fight in your life and have never felt the effects of too much adrenaline

Where the best body guards travel to train? It's not Thailand, it's Israel. Could you care to explain why such professionals prefer KM over MT or Judo? Or why armed forces seek the know-how of KM instructors intead of UFC fighters? Must be because they enjoy "unrealistic" stuff.
what best bodyguards are you talking about. I think you have one too many krav maga brochures bodyguards use guns and numbers not super deadly hand to hand combat.

answered

 

[ironbismark]

I agree that there is proper technique to handle a knife attack i just don't see this being a proper technique for that. I honestly do not understand how you don't see this technique leading to the guy dragging his knife down your arm to stab your thoat or armpit. I also don't understand how you don't see how that technique is more similar to the comedy sketch than the actual knife fight. Martial arts break you of bad reactions it should not incorporate them into techniques that are ineffective. I'm sure krav has a lot of effective techniques but without sparring doesnt teach the timing to use them properly. Also lets not pretend isreal is batle testing hand to hand combat with the idf krav is basically the same as our army combative's program. Soldiers use guns, tanks and airstrikes not hand to hand combat.

 

[SUBfighterIL]

sparring is the 2nd most common drill in Krav Maga, usually involves 2vs1 or 3 vs 1 with weapons such as rubber knife, plastic or wooden handgun and a rubber boutan.
many Krav Maga dojos in Israel dont even use safety equipment.... but outside of Israel im very sure they do... to avoid mcdojos that advertise themselves as Krav Maga and self defence just ask if the instructor is israeli or jewish... if not its not legit.

 

[muaythaitechniq]

I agree that there is proper technique to handle a knife attack i just don't see this being a proper technique for that. I honestly do not understand how you don't see this technique leading to the guy dragging his knife down your arm to stab your thoat or armpit. I also don't understand how you don't see how that technique is more similar to the comedy sketch than the actual knife fight. Martial arts break you of bad reactions it should not incorporate them into techniques that are ineffective. I'm sure krav has a lot of effective techniques but without sparring doesnt teach the timing to use them properly. Also lets not pretend isreal is batle testing hand to hand combat with the idf krav is basically the same as our army combative's program. Soldiers use guns, tanks and airstrikes not hand to hand combat.

This is my final response to this post. We keep rehashing the same argument over and over. I'll leave it at this.

Can honestly say you know what to do if someone shoves a gun in your face and WANTS to kill you or your family? Do you know what to do if someone pulls a knife and WANTS to kill you or your family? If you do, great!

From my experience Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, or Boxing will not give you the proper skill to do this. Krav Maga will. I'm a long time practitioner of MT and new to BJJ. I love both of these arts and they are a tremendous benefit for my job as a law enforcement officer. But they haven't taught me how to react to a gun or a knife. Krav Maga will.

YOU HAVE TO TRAIN THESE SKILLS! THEY WILL NOT COME NATURALLY TO YOU!

Regarding the IDF & Krav Maga being battle tested. Have you ever been to Israel and gone through the border checkpoints? Or even walked around the mall? I have. Suicide bombers, assassinations and a plethora of other crazy shit happens there on a daily basis. Not as much now, but they still have their attacks. The Israelis and Palestinians hate each other. Individual IDF soldiers have saved countless lives because of the techniques they've learned in KM.

Army Combatives/MCMAP/Etc: Again, have you ever had to clear a building hunting for insurgents in Rhamdi? How about walk a patrol in the market in downtown Baghdad? I have. Tanks and airstrikes don't help a lot when you're having to clear a house looking for insurgents. When you're grabbing guys, zip tying them and getting them out of the area, its nice to know if the shit hits the fan, I'll be able to react. It's all done by hand. You cannot hold a piece of land without putting a body on it first/last.

Regarding the stab:

The example the TS used of the overhand/ice pick stab. The mechanics of it is a straight down stab, very hard and very fast. Typically, these stabs aren't the "sewing machine" type, where its fast repeated stabbing. When faced with an attack of this nature people, will instinctually raise their hand to block it. I don't care if you're a black belt in BJJ or have trained in Muay Thai for 20 years. Your arm/hand will instictually go towards the threat to either block it or intercept it.

Here's an example of the overhand stab:



The first stabbing, the guy made the mistake of being within the danger zone of the perp. If he were smart, he would have left a reactionary gap or not been in the confrontation at all. In all the stabbings, EVERYONE lifted their hand to block the knife.

YOU WILL RAISE YOUR HAND TOWARDS THE THREAT. So, why not properly train to raise your hand, make contact with the wrist, block the knife, gain wrist control and go on the offensive? I would rather have my arm cut, then a knife poke me in the heart and die. Like the first guy in the video.

 

[ironbismark]

Listen unless isreal has stopped issueing rifles don't bullshit with this batletested crap.

Yes people who are untrained will flinch in that situation that is why you learn martial arts to break your bad habits. That technique is a very very bad habit that leaves your neck and face open and your arm is lifted leaving your left armpit exposed. While it would work fine for blocking a punch it doesn't make any sense if there is a knife involved. I can't take seriously any art that doesn't understand the danger of a knife and teaches knife techniques anyway.
It's as bad as the handgun disarming techniques that move the barrel of the gun across your body.

 

[Murci]

LOL, unarmed knife defense; good way to lose a finger or sever an artery.

all depends on luck/skill other variables. I've seen a fair few knife killing investigation and usually the attacker has knife wounds aswell.

 

[Human Bass]

This is my final response to this post. We keep rehashing the same argument over and over. I'll leave it at this.

Can honestly say you know what to do if someone shoves a gun in your face and WANTS to kill you or your family? Do you know what to do if someone pulls a knife and WANTS to kill you or your family? If you do, great!

From my experience Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, or Boxing will not give you the proper skill to do this. Krav Maga will. I'm a long time practitioner of MT and new to BJJ. I love both of these arts and they are a tremendous benefit for my job as a law enforcement officer. But they haven't taught me how to react to a gun or a knife. Krav Maga will.

YOU HAVE TO TRAIN THESE SKILLS! THEY WILL NOT COME NATURALLY TO YOU!

Regarding the IDF & Krav Maga being battle tested. Have you ever been to Israel and gone through the border checkpoints? Or even walked around the mall? I have. Suicide bombers, assassinations and a plethora of other crazy shit happens there on a daily basis. Not as much now, but they still have their attacks. The Israelis and Palestinians hate each other. Individual IDF soldiers have saved countless lives because of the techniques they've learned in KM.

Army Combatives/MCMAP/Etc: Again, have you ever had to clear a building hunting for insurgents in Rhamdi? How about walk a patrol in the market in downtown Baghdad? I have. Tanks and airstrikes don't help a lot when you're having to clear a house looking for insurgents. When you're grabbing guys, zip tying them and getting them out of the area, its nice to know if the shit hits the fan, I'll be able to react. It's all done by hand. You cannot hold a piece of land without putting a body on it first/last.

Regarding the stab:

The example the TS used of the overhand/ice pick stab. The mechanics of it is a straight down stab, very hard and very fast. Typically, these stabs aren't the "sewing machine" type, where its fast repeated stabbing. When faced with an attack of this nature people, will instinctually raise their hand to block it. I don't care if you're a black belt in BJJ or have trained in Muay Thai for 20 years. Your arm/hand will instictually go towards the threat to either block it or intercept it.

Here's an example of the overhand stab:



The first stabbing, the guy made the mistake of being within the danger zone of the perp. If he were smart, he would have left a reactionary gap or not been in the confrontation at all. In all the stabbings, EVERYONE lifted their hand to block the knife.

YOU WILL RAISE YOUR HAND TOWARDS THE THREAT. So, why not properly train to raise your hand, make contact with the wrist, block the knife, gain wrist control and go on the offensive? I would rather have my arm cut, then a knife poke me in the heart and die. Like the first guy in the video.

Finally someone that understands what Im saying and could explain it even better than I do. Thank you. =)

 

[Human Bass]

Kobi Lichtenstein teaching some tricks to the Brazilian Army in the south region:

YouTube - Policia do Exercito RS

I personally like the immobilization at 48s. :icon_chee

 

[YoungTommy]

Listen unless isreal has stopped issueing rifles don't bullshit with this batletested crap.

Yes people who are untrained will flinch in that situation that is why you learn martial arts to break your bad habits. That technique is a very very bad habit that leaves your neck and face open and your arm is lifted leaving your left armpit exposed. While it would work fine for blocking a punch it doesn't make any sense if there is a knife involved. I can't take seriously any art that doesn't understand the danger of a knife and teaches knife techniques anyway.
It's as bad as the handgun disarming techniques that move the barrel of the gun across your body.

This. Those Israeli soldiers don't really get into hand to hand altercations with anybody. They shoot people, they snipe people, they have tanks, helicopters, etc... Anyone with experience in combat sports can see that Krav Maga is actually a piss poor ineffective fighting style. It's just a really low skill level basic training for soldiers and it might be slightly better than nothing at all. The way Krav is taught in the west is a cardio kickboxing class designed to instill false confidence in the students who train it. The way its taught in Israel is a system designed to beat up 13 year old kids who throw rocks. Either way I call that an epic fail.

 

[Human Bass]

This. Those Israeli soldiers don't really get into hand to hand altercations with anybody. They shoot people, they snipe people, they have tanks, helicopters, etc... Anyone with experience in combat sports can see that Krav Maga is actually a piss poor ineffective fighting style. It's just a really low skill level basic training for soldiers and it might be slightly better than nothing at all. The way Krav is taught in the west is a cardio kickboxing class designed to instill false confidence in the students who train it. The way its taught in Israel is a system designed to beat up 13 year old kids who throw rocks. Either way I call that an epic fail.

Funny how KM was created by a guy with plenty of experience in combat sports, a top european boxer and wrestler at his time.

And if you found a place that shows KM as cardio kickboxing, you just found a mcdojo, something that plagues all MAs. =)

 

[ironbismark]

Funny how KM was created by a guy with plenty of experience in combat sports, a top european boxer and wrestler at his time.

And if you found a place that shows KM as cardio kickboxing, you just found a mcdojo, something that plagues all MAs. =)

thats kind of the point without the prior experience in combat sports krav is pretty useless only teaching you enough to get you in trouble but not enough to get out of it.

Its not our fault krav maga lets people take 2 day weekend courses and call themselves instructors. If they wanted people to take them seriously they wouldn't do that.

 

[Human Bass]

thats kind of the point without the prior experience in combat sports krav is pretty useless only teaching you enough to get you in trouble but not enough to get out of it.

Its not our fault krav maga lets people take 2 day weekend courses and call themselves instructors. If they wanted people to take them seriously they wouldn't do that.

KM is all about get out of the problem the faster you can.

And KM is now an entity who allows other folks to become instructors? But thanks to the internet, it's quite easy to enter in contact with legithm KM orgs that can enlight you about a certain person being qualified or not.

 

[ironbismark]

which art are you comparing it too that tries to drag fights out?

why doesn't krav maga police itself like a serious art will? in what art where your ability is tested would a weekend course mean instructor level? Again its no our fault krav maga has sold its respectability to tkd studios and even if they hadn't your still have the problem of teaching techniques from different martial arts without teaching the fundamentals of that art.

 

[Human Bass]

which art are you comparing it too that tries to drag fights out?

why doesn't krav maga police itself like a serious art will? in what art where your ability is tested would a weekend course mean instructor level? Again its no our fault krav maga has sold its respectability to tkd studios and even if they hadn't your still have the problem of teaching techniques from different martial arts without teaching the fundamentals of that art.

You are talking as if KM was a person! So, this dude known as Krav-Maga sould his respectability? Makes no sense. I know the USA is plagued with mcdojos. But here in Brazil Krav-Maga is a trademark that only the Brazilian Federation of KM can use, it's tightly regulated. Go check Bullshido page, all martial arts suffer from phony masters.

Techniques very seldomly are exclusive to one martial art, Muay Thai didn't invent the knee. A punch is a punch. KM will teach the fundalmentals of a good punch, a good kick, a good arm lock, all based in biomechanical principles, and those are universal as long the law of physics and the human body remain the same. More than an style, KM is focused on demonstrating the logic of what is efficient.