HB's guide to Krav-Maga.

[ironbismark]

The guy would need a very strong mental game to worry about filleting the blocking arm while eating a punchat the same time. Of course if you block, then punch a littler later, he may be able to pull the knife down, but then, you are doing it wrong.

But why you dont look for a nearby KM instructor and check with him? No matter what we arguee, life example is better.

yes he would need to be superhuman to be able to execute the basic tenant of knife fighting cut anything your knife touches and you've closed the distance for him and touched your forearm to his knife. i'm not sure what in that technique prevents him from just dragging his knife down your forearm and filleting it except your apparently brain rattling jab. none of this seems realistic or a safe way to handle someone with a knife.
i have met krav maga instructors the only ones who have impressed me have spent extensive time training other arts which leads me to question the point of krav maga as a fighting system if to be any good at it you have to have become an expert in other styles to get the timing and experience to use the system.


and if any instructor in any art showed me a technique like that where you sacrifice and arm to get in a punch i would severely doubt their credibility.

 

[jlagman]

I just don't see the point of spending time with learning hand vs. knife defense when it's much better to practice and perfect identifying and avoiding those kinds of situations in the first place. From a recreational standpoint; it' cool, whatever, I like classical fencing and archery. But from a practical standpoint it just seems like a waste of time to me.

*shrug*

 

[Human Bass]

I just don't see the point of spending time with learning hand vs. knife defense when it's much better to practice and perfect identifying and avoiding those kinds of situations in the first place. From a recreational standpoint; it' cool, whatever, I like classical fencing and archery. But from a practical standpoint it just seems like a waste of time to me.

*shrug*

It's not always possible to avoid dangerous situation, unless one never leaves home.

And how many times you have seen in the news about people stabbed to death? Even by close relatives.

I personally know some case of rape that if the victim knew some basic KM, she would be able to reverse the situation easily. I've never been into a single brawl in my whole life, but I don't know the future.

 

[ironbismark]

It's not always possible to avoid dangerous situation, unless one never leaves home.

And how many times you have seen in the news about people stabbed to death? Even by close relatives.

I personally know some case of rape that if the victim knew some basic KM, she would be able to reverse the situation easily. I've never been into a single brawl in my whole life, but I don't know the future.

it is very easy to avoid dangerous situations just basic situational awareness and avoiding the worse area's of town.

i rarely see any stabbings in the news. i cannot recall the last time i saw anything about it.

There is very little chance of basic krav maga concepts saving someone from a rape. It takes years of practice to be able to properly execute techniques against a fully resisting opponent and the unresisting method of teaching the moves in krav maga will never really prepare them.
concealed weopon permits are 120 dollars a handgun in 400 a pitbull is around 400 all much quicker cheaper and more effective methods of self defense than years of training in any martial art.

 

[peregrine]

The person wielding the knife usually is quite confident and focused in using in his weapon. I still have to see someone stabbing with one hand and punch with the other. Of course nothing will ever be 100% sure, but better some cuts in the arm than holes in your torso.But I still have to see a knife defense that is more simple and has a rate of sucess higher than this one.

You still don't get what i was trying to insinuate.
Plain and simple.
You block like that with someone who has 5minutes of knife training and they'll staple that arm to your torso using the knife. = arm messed up, but more importantly lungs/heart/neck perforated many times with 9" kitchen knife.

Your best case scenario-
I have the knife, you attack me with your fist and I get a broken nose, cut mouth or even a broken jaw. Simutaneously with your punch you rising block or attacking block my knife hand. I ice pick stab. You block, fortunately for you I have the blade out, so my knife doesn't slice down your wrist to your elbow joint.
Then what do you do?

Likely scenario-
Blade out. Knifer is over confident, and in a primal state, jacked on adrenaline if not drugs as well. You seeing he has an ice pick grip like you've worked in Krav. You remember the drill in Krav. He attacks, knife in the lead, you overhead block and punch slide to get the under hook on his knife arm and head control. Your punch hurts, but has minimal effect. The knife is coming down and slides down your arm. You knee him in the groin. He's on top of you, he stabs again, this time it hits you in the upper chest penetrating your lung. Feeling like a hard punch. Your arms are trying to block. Your arm comes up to block the knife hand, successfully meeting his wrist. The blade a kitchen knife is 9" long, only 4" penetrates your chest this time cause you blocked.
His knife knocks you back. You think you're doing ok cause you feel only hard thuds on your body and you landed your punch to his face and knee to his groin. He strikes again, and again and again. You keep blocking and hitting him, trying to work that modified thai clinch of underhook head control. How many can you block? How many of those blocks are still letting the knife through?

Worst case scenario?
He has had training and he has knifed meat in the past. He knows how to choose a blade. He knows how to use a blade. He knows there are only a limited number of ways to defend, he anticipates those into his flurry. You block, he pins your arm to your waist and knifes you till you drop, follows you to the ground and keeps knifing you till see black.

The second part is my point as well. You have just begun your martial arts journey, there is more than Krav Maga.


The video here says the 'Chief KM' of the US.
YouTube - Krav Maga: Knife Defence 1

same series heres the ice pick @ 2:30
YouTube - Krav Maga: Knife Defence 2
^ I seriously want you to find a recreational mma friend and you give them a rubber/soft knife. Have them wear a cup/mouthpiece, mma gloves and come at you ice pick style with the knife. I'll play handicap and for the attacker to win he must land 3 ice pick thursts to the face/neck/torso. Tell us if you 'survive' those attacks.

 

[peregrine]

I just don't see the point of spending time with learning hand vs. knife defense when it's much better to practice and perfect identifying and avoiding those kinds of situations in the first place. From a recreational standpoint; it' cool, whatever, I like classical fencing and archery. But from a practical standpoint it just seems like a waste of time to me.

*shrug*

Insurance.

Why do you train martial arts? is it solely for fitness or competition?

 

[peregrine]

HB I am sorry if it seems I am flaming Krav Maga. I think it is equivalent in effectiveness to Army Combatives, and MCMAPs.
I think Krav Maga as it is trained in the US from the 'very limited' scope that I have been exposed to is good for the house wife or the male looking to get into shape.

 

[jlagman]

Insurance.

Why do you train martial arts? is it solely for fitness or competition?

Pretty much, I make myself fully aware of my limitations in "uncontrolled environments" and don't fool myself into thinking that a ring sport directly translates into real life.

It's not always possible to avoid dangerous situation, unless one never leaves home.

And how many times you have seen in the news about people stabbed to death? Even by close relatives.

I personally know some case of rape that if the victim knew some basic KM, she would be able to reverse the situation easily. I've never been into a single brawl in my whole life, but I don't know the future.

In such situations, it's better to be armed.

 

[muaythaitechniq]

There are 101 ways to do a technique. Whether its throwing a punch, throwing a kick or defending a knife attack. In reality, a knife attack is probably one of the hardest things to defend against. It's usually a surprise attack and requires close quarters.

I've been involved in 2 knife attacks, one at work and one on vacation. I really couldn't avoid either. Staying in the safe part of town, not using public transportation, etc., etc. If some deranged fool wants to pull out a knife and do harm to you, its going to happen.

I'm not sure if either of you guys practice knife defense on a consistent basis or have any type of training. But I would much rather practice something, then nothing. I'm a former student of KM and wasn't (and still not) sold on the 360 knife defense. But, I'm glad I have some type of reaction to it, instead of not having a clue what to do if attacked.

As far as my 2 knife attacks are concerned. I was lucky enough to be able to create distance, have a barrier (vehicle) and pull my gun at work. On vacation I gladly gave up my wallet, camera and backpack...And told the guy "F-you very much!"

 

[ironbismark]

There are a lot of different ways to deal with a knife wielding attacker. None of them should involve not controlling the knife at all costs. The thread with the shock knife shows what i mean. Pretending that your punch will disable your attack and sticking something fleshy in the way of the blade is such a bad idea and it will get someone hurt. Sucks you got mugged but doesn't sound like krav maga did anything for you. in one you had a gun and in the other you didnt fight back. I don't think you need years of training to do either of those.

 

[Human Bass]

Pretty much, I make myself fully aware of my limitations in "uncontrolled environments" and don't fool myself into thinking that a ring sport directly translates into real life.



In such situations, it's better to be armed.

Indeed, but I guess you know that outside the US, guns laws tend to be quite rigorous. For example, here in Brazil you have to fill plenty of paper to get a mere paintball gun.

 

[handbannana**]

I'm the real HB, I just wanted to stop by and let you know that. To contribute to the thread now. If I'm out around shady people and places I usually don't frequent like a friend's friend's house party in a bad part of town I'll usually carry my AK-47 knife.

It has a nice broad blade for slashing and it opens when you pull it out of your pocket. It's the next best thing to carry then an automatic knife.

 

[Human Bass]

By the way, I know most people here are big fans of Bas Rutten, and the man himself gives a quite positive opinion about KM in his famous self defense video, and Bas is a guy with plenty of experience in those kind of situations.

 

[muaythaitechniq]

There are a lot of different ways to deal with a knife wielding attacker. None of them should involve not controlling the knife at all costs. The thread with the shock knife shows what i mean. Pretending that your punch will disable your attack and sticking something fleshy in the way of the blade is such a bad idea and it will get someone hurt. Sucks you got mugged but doesn't sound like krav maga did anything for you. in one you had a gun and in the other you didnt fight back. I don't think you need years of training to do either of those.

In reality, most stabbing are going to be like this and is pretty hard to defend:



This is one of those situations where you create distance and shot the dude. If it's not an option you have to control the knife. BUT YOU WILL BE CUT.

The KM technique does control the knife. You have one of two options when a downward/ice pick movement is done with the knife. 1. Dodge it. 2. Attack it. The KM technique is to attack the knife hand, while punching the face. The purpose of the punch is to have the attacker go from the Offense, into the Defense. Ideal situation is the perp gets KTFO, but how often is that going to happen. After the punch, the knife hand is secured and the person is attacked.

If someone is trying to stab/cut you and you can't get out the way, they will cut you. I would rather be cut attacking the perp, then running and getting cut. KM does advocate and teach; if you are being robbed by gun/knife, give up your goodies. The KM techniques are used for that situation when someone is trying to end your life.

This incident happened recently and if one of those folks in the room had trained in KM and learned to disarm a person. It wouldn't have ended to badly:



If you can't see the above try this:

 

[ironbismark]

that video shows the importance of controlling the weapon at all times as he is just going to stab and stab and stab no matter what you do to him. I understand that if you fight someone with a knife your getting cut but if you try to control the weapon it should minimize it. Punching someone in the face isn't going to stop him from stabbing you nor would that "block" of the knife do anything but get your arm filleted. I would rather get wrist control on the knife hand preferable without stabbing myself like that picture does than punch them and loosen a few teeth.

 

[Human Bass]

Dude, it doesn't end at the punch at all. The punch can be easily followed by a knee to the groin, and after the punch, since the opponent is stunned and your hand is already close to the arm wielding the knife (because your arm blocked his), just a little arm turn and you can grab his arm and have a better chance of controlling a guy that was stunned by a punch than a guy that didn't receive any strike.

Starting at 2min40s.



But hey, that is just one kind of defence, thw most basic one/easy to learn. There are many other kinds, depending on the agression.

 

[ironbismark]

Dude, it doesn't end at the punch at all. The punch can be easily followed by a knee to the groin, and after the punch, since the opponent is stunned and your hand is already close to the arm wielding the knife (because your arm blocked his), just a little arm turn and you can grab his arm and have a better chance of controlling a guy that was stunned by a punch than a guy that didn't receive any strike.

Starting at 2min40s.



But hey, that is just one kind of defence, thw most basic one/easy to learn. There are many other kinds, depending on the agression.

sooo it looks like this technique is for when your fighting people who are paralyzed after you hit them once and have no ability to react?

 

[ThirteenTwo]

The person wielding the knife usually is quite confident and focused in using in his weapon. I still have to see someone stabbing with one hand and punch with the other. Of course nothing will ever be 100% sure, but better some cuts in the arm than holes in your torso.

But I still have to see a knife defense that is more simple and has a rate of sucess higher than this one.

You're just a dirty bastard for saying everything I want to say but better.

 

[ThirteenTwo]

You still don't get what i was trying to insinuate.
Plain and simple.
You block like that with someone who has 5minutes of knife training and they'll staple that arm to your torso using the knife. = arm messed up, but more importantly lungs/heart/neck perforated many times with 9" kitchen knife.

I wonder what world you live in where people with any knife training are running around stabbing people at random.

Or any gun training.

Most of these techniques are based on people who are at least somewhat ignorant. Someone who has cornered you and is trying to hurt you doesn't expect you to attack them. There's an element of surprise.

If someone with real gun/knife training is trying to kill you, you're dead. Period.

And you're going to get cut or stabbed whenever you fight anyone with a knife. But would you rather roll over and die?

 

[Only ONE GOAT]

Not sure if it is effective enough. possibly with other martial arts...........Maybe.