Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

george14

george14

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First and foremost, yes I agree the sport of MMA has evolved. Obviously guys can focus on training full time and dedicate their lives to becoming an MMA fighter. However, I have been seeing a lot of hypothetical "can X compete today" threads, resulting in many saying MMA has evolved too much.

With regards to the HW division, maybe even LHW, I disagree with the evolution. We still see guys like Lewis and Ngannou who are big brawlers. Not to mention, guys like Hunt (43), Overeem (37), Werdum (40), and Arlosvki (39) all come from that era and are still top 10 fighters (to my recollection at least). Maybe I am oblivious, but I genuinely do not see this suppsoed "evolution" among the top fighters in the HW division. Aside from Stipe and healthy Cain of course. Even at LHW, aside from Jones (roids), DC, and Gus, I don't see a huge evolution.

I believe guys like Randy, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Big Nog could all compete today.

NOTE: I'm a pleb and can't add a poll/don't know how.
 
the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.
 
i would say the lower tier guys have all gotten better. Eilers and Cabbage got into the top 10, and Volkov, Tybura and Blaydes would destroy those guys. IMO.

top tier as well, but not as extremely. i think Werdum, Stipe, JDS (though he will forever have a * on his name) beat Sylvia, Couture, etc. but Sylvia & Couture prob beat Blaydes.

which is a long way of saying, yes it's evolved, but probably at a different pace than other divisions. and in all divisions, the lower tier guys have evolved more than upper tier guys; take an upper tier guy from any era and he's still probably top 10 today.

case in point, recently AA was still beating lower top 10's a decade after his title, but couldn't quite make it in the top echelon anymore.
 
3sumrock said:
the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.
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A fair point but CC was also 32 when he came to the UFC with a pretty long MMA career and Kickboxing career.
 
This is roughly what the top 10 in 2004 looked like.

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Antonio Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira
3. Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic
4. Tim Sylvia
5. Josh Barnett
6. Andrei Arlovski
7. Heath Herring
8. Mark Coleman
9. Pedro Rizzo
10. Ricco Rodriguez

I believe anyone of those fighters from 04 would be top 10 today. Maybe with the exception of Heath Herring.
 
SeattleFightFan said:
top tier as well, but not as extremely. i think Werdum, Struve, JDS (though he will forever have a * on his name) beat Sylvia, Couture, etc. but Sylvia & Couture prob beat Blaydes.
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I think you meant to type "Stipe"... although Struve did beat Stipe lol.
 
Brock was a big guy who could move well but had no standup or standup defense.

Now you've got nearly all big guys who can move well and punch.
 
I actually think it has devolved since USADA
 
ralphus1 said:
Brock was a big guy who could move well but had no standup or standup defense.

Now you've got nearly all big guys who can move well and punch.
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I don't see how that is any different than Ngannou who is a massive dude who can only punch.
 
3sumrock said:
the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.
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You forgot to mention he had close to 100 ( or maybe even more )kickboxing and mma matches to his name ... conveniently left that out though
 
3sumrock said:
the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Crocop was one of the fastest and most mobile fighters the HW division has ever seen.

You see any HW's moving like this today?

giphy.gif


After the OWGP Crocop had another knee surgery before arriving at UFC and this accumulation of injuries meant his movement, speed and power was never really the same again after close to 100 fights between amateur boxing, K1 and MMA.

With that kind of Mileage guys aren't gonna be the same Crocop had 27 fights just in MMA before his UFC debut.

Cain is at 16 fights, Stipe at 20 and Ngannou at 12, you think those guys are still gonna kicking ass in even 15 fights time?
 
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george14 said:
I don't see how that is any different than Ngannou who is a massive dude who can only punch.
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Or Black Beast or 43 year old Hunt who lost to Brock (and is currently ranked top 5) or at LHW Jimmy Manuwa or the Dark Sorcerer...
 
fedoriswar37 said:
You forgot to mention he had close to 100 ( or maybe even more )kickboxing and mma matches to his name ... conveniently left that out though
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out of physical prime shouldnt affect your skill set, cro cop fight exactly the same in ufc like he did in pride
 
3sumrock said:
out of physical prime shouldnt affect your skill set, cro cop fight exactly the same in ufc like he did in pride
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no, he didn't. he could barely kick above the waist in the UFC. it was his weapon of choice. also, his 2 decades of fighting - including one stretch of 22 fights in 3 years - took their tool, and when he went downhill, he did so faster than most.

and even though your opinion has been thoroughly debunked over the years, it will apparently never go away. arguing with you on this is like arguing with a new, young anti-vaxxer. so i'll just say i'm sorry you don't understand the fight game enough to see what is obvious, and have a good day.
 
3sumrock said:
out of physical prime shouldnt affect your skill set, cro cop fight exactly the same in ufc like he did in pride
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It will affect your performance. He beat Barnett right before he went to the UFC and Barnett was still a top 10 HW last year.
 
SeattleFightFan said:
no, he didn't. he could barely kick above the waist in the UFC. it was his weapon of choice.

and even though your opinion has been thoroughly debunked over the years, it will apparently never go away. arguing with you on this is like arguing with a new, young anti-vaxxer. so i'll just say i'm sorry you don't understand the fight game enough to see what is obvious, and have a good day.
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truth hurt
 
SeattleFightFan said:
i would say the lower tier guys have all gotten better. Eilers and Cabbage got into the top 10, and Volkov, Tybura and Blaydes would destroy those guys. IMO.
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lol, Eilers and Cabbage were never top 10, unless you're talking strictly about the UFC HW division, which it's pretty clear TS is not.
 
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