Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

The same as any division. It had evolved as far as more fighters have more time to train.
But the very good fighters were always doing that.

Ever since the very earliest ufc people knew
They had to be well rounded fighters. Marco Ruas was very well rounded. And i could rattle off these well rounded guy even though mma fans are so new they have no idea about the guys before.

All of this evolution and remeber the new breed hws?
I do
 
lol, Eilers and Cabbage were never top 10, unless you're talking strictly about the UFC HW division, which it's pretty clear TS is not.
you're right :) i was using UFC top 10 there and not everywhere else. apologies.

after Ricco and Rizzo left and Couture dropped down, the mid 00's had only 3 good HW fighters; Mir, Sylvia and AA.
 
Its had very weak recruitment in the ufc for ages which hurts it
 
First and foremost, yes I agree the sport of MMA has evolved. Obviously guys can focus on training full time and dedicate their lives to becoming an MMA fighter. However, I have been seeing a lot of hypothetical "can X compete today" threads, resulting in many saying MMA has evolved too much.

With regards to the HW division, maybe even LHW, I disagree with the evolution. We still see guys like Lewis and Ngannou who are big brawlers. Not to mention, guys like Hunt (43), Overeem (37), Werdum (40), and Arlosvki (39) all come from that era and are still top 10 fighters (to my recollection at least). Maybe I am oblivious, but I genuinely do not see this suppsoed "evolution" among the top fighters in the HW division. Aside from Stipe and healthy Cain of course. Even at LHW, aside from Jones (roids), DC, and Gus, I don't see a huge evolution.

I believe guys like Randy, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Big Nog could all compete today.

NOTE: I'm a pleb and can't add a poll/don't know how.
That's a very good question. It's obvious that the smaller-guy (MW and below) divisions have evolved A LOT, but have the 2 big-guy divisions, especially HW? It doesn't seem like they have. So I agree with you. The big question then is WHY NOT? I gotta think about that. You've introduced a fascinating topic.
 
the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.
Crocop critics are the worst kind of stupid. Zero concept of mileage, look at how few fights so called modern UFC HWs like Cain have. They will never measure up to Crocop.
 
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definitely, yeah. werdum against cain was the best werdum we've ever seen. stipe is obviously one of the greatest and most skilled heavyweight athletes mma has ever seen. overeem's career has always been a roller coaster. cain's injuries forced him out but he symbolizes evolution. the lower level guys are coming in with higher credentials. blaydes, volkov and lewis wouldve been competitive at any point in heavywieght mma.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Crocop was one of the fastest and most mobile fighters the HW division has ever seen.

You see any HW's moving like this today?

giphy.gif


After the OWGP Crocop had another knee surgery before arriving at UFC and this accumulation of injuries meant his movement, speed and power was never really the same again after close to 100 fights between amateur boxing, K1 and MMA.

With that kind of Mileage guys aren't gonna be the same Crocop had 27 fights just in MMA before his UFC debut.

Cain is at 16 fights, Stipe at 20 and Ngannou at 12, you think those guys are still gonna kicking ass in even 15 fights time?
hes fighting a middleweight in this gif, though. imagine any of the current top heavyweights getting their hands on a middleweight today. stipe v maldonado is a decent example.
 
definitely, yeah. werdum against cain was the best werdum we've ever seen. stipe is obviously one of the greatest and most skilled heavyweight athletes mma has ever seen. overeem's career has always been a roller coaster. cain's injuries forced him out but he symbolizes evolution. the lower level guys are coming in with higher credentials. blaydes, volkov and lewis wouldve been competitive at any point in heavywieght mma.


hes fighting a middleweight in this gif, though. imagine any of the current top heavyweights getting their hands on a middleweight today. stipe v maldonado is a decent example.

What did wand weigh in at? If its over 206 he's a heavyweight.
 
Why would the sport get better but not the heavyweights?
(The answer should be fun).

Fedor was 223-236 pounds.
Couture, Crocop and Nogueira were 215-225 pounds.
Where are all these small heavyweights today?

Skill wise, those guys were still trying to figure out the sport, experiencing, trial and error.
The disparity between a guy not properly trained and a guy that had a more advanced team, better and more open minded coaches, training partners, was huge.

Listen Cheal from 1 minute onwards.



He also talk how Randy Couture made training for mma "modern", like a true professional athlete.
Today we take for granted a lot of aspects that at the time weren't at all.
 
Hard to compare, ring vs cage makes such a big difference.
 
definitely, yeah. werdum against cain was the best werdum we've ever seen. stipe is obviously one of the greatest and most skilled heavyweight athletes mma has ever seen. overeem's career has always been a roller coaster. cain's injuries forced him out but he symbolizes evolution. the lower level guys are coming in with higher credentials. blaydes, volkov and lewis wouldve been competitive at any point in heavywieght mma.


hes fighting a middleweight in this gif, though. imagine any of the current top heavyweights getting their hands on a middleweight today. stipe v maldonado is a decent example.
If Wand's a MW CC is a LHW, he weighed in the 220's.
 
A lot of "205ers" take away from the HW division. 220-240 is a great weight range for a lot of great HWs. Many now are dropping to 205 and not fighting at HW, shallowing the division.
 
Considering the "New Breed" of HW already left and got new jobs while some of the "Old Breed" like AA are still fighting and winning, I dont think you can say its evolved.
 
definitely, yeah. werdum against cain was the best werdum we've ever seen. stipe is obviously one of the greatest and most skilled heavyweight athletes mma has ever seen. overeem's career has always been a roller coaster. cain's injuries forced him out but he symbolizes evolution. the lower level guys are coming in with higher credentials. blaydes, volkov and lewis wouldve been competitive at any point in heavywieght mma.


hes fighting a middleweight in this gif, though. imagine any of the current top heavyweights getting their hands on a middleweight today. stipe v maldonado is a decent example.

Come on now. You are comparing prime Wandy to Maldonado? I think a more accurate comparison would be Stipe and Romero.
 
Why would the sport get better but not the heavyweights?
(The answer should be fun).

Fedor was 223-236 pounds.
Couture, Crocop and Nogueira were 215-225 pounds.
Where are all these small heavyweights today?

Skill wise, those guys were still trying to figure out the sport, experiencing, trial and error.
The disparity between a guy not properly trained and a guy that had a more advanced team, better and more open minded coaches, training partners, was huge.

Listen Cheal from 1 minute onwards.



He also talk how Randy Couture made training for mma "modern", like a true professional athlete.
Today we take for granted a lot of aspects that at the time weren't at all.


Barnett was 6'3 and 250 pounds
Sergei was 6'4 and 242 pounds
Aleks was 6'5 and 260 pounds
Werdum was 6'4 and 245
ArlovskI was 6'4 and 245
Sylvia was 6'7 and 280
Ricco was 6'3 and 240
Mir was 6'3 and 240
Erikson was 6"3 and 320
Hunt was short but 300 pounds
Coleman was 6'1 and 250 poujds
Herring was 6'4 and 240 pounds
Kerr was 6'2 and 255 pounds
Schilt was 6'11 and 290 pounds
McGee was 6'10 and 270 pounds

I could go on and on. There were plenty big guys. Just because Fedor, CC and Nog(who bulked to 240 for some fights) were small doesn't mean everyone else was. Look at today. We have 5'10 and 235 pound DC fighting for the UFC HW title
 
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Why would the sport get better but not the heavyweights?
(The answer should be fun).

Fedor was 223-236 pounds.
Couture, Crocop and Nogueira were 215-225 pounds.
Where are all these small heavyweights today?

Skill wise, those guys were still trying to figure out the sport, experiencing, trial and error.
The disparity between a guy not properly trained and a guy that had a more advanced team, better and more open minded coaches, training partners, was huge.

Listen Cheal from 1 minute onwards.



He also talk how Randy Couture made training for mma "modern", like a true professional athlete.
Today we take for granted a lot of aspects that at the time weren't at all.


thanks for the video. i'd never seen it.
 
First and foremost, yes I agree the sport of MMA has evolved. Obviously guys can focus on training full time and dedicate their lives to becoming an MMA fighter. However, I have been seeing a lot of hypothetical "can X compete today" threads, resulting in many saying MMA has evolved too much.

With regards to the HW division, maybe even LHW, I disagree with the evolution. We still see guys like Lewis and Ngannou who are big brawlers. Not to mention, guys like Hunt (43), Overeem (37), Werdum (40), and Arlosvki (39) all come from that era and are still top 10 fighters (to my recollection at least). Maybe I am oblivious, but I genuinely do not see this suppsoed "evolution" among the top fighters in the HW division. Aside from Stipe and healthy Cain of course. Even at LHW, aside from Jones (roids), DC, and Gus, I don't see a huge evolution.

I believe guys like Randy, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Big Nog could all compete today.

NOTE: I'm a pleb and can't add a poll/don't know how.

I think this is punctual.
Yes, HW is a mess, but that's on the UFC for not building anyone. They sit and wait for someone like Francis to appear.

So on that, I do think that yes, Fedor, Cro Cop and Nog could probably climb to the top rankings.
But the top (Miocic, Cain and even the evolved Werdum) are now too well rounded for them.

They would probably be able to win some fights, but I doubt they would dominate as they did in Pride.
 
Barnett was 6'3 and 250 pounds
Sergei was 6'4 and 242 pounds
Aleks was 6'5 and 260 pounds
Werdum was 6'4 and 245
ArlovskI was 6'4 and 245
Sylvia was 6'7 and 280
Ricco was 6'3 and 240
Mir was 6'3 and 240
Erikson was 6"3 and 320
Hunt was short but 300 pounds
Coleman was 6'1 and 250
Herring was 6'4 and 240

I could go on and on. There were plenty big guys. Just because Fedor, CC and Nog were small doesn't mean everyone else was. Look at today. We have 5'10 and 235 pound DC fighting for the UFC HW title
Or Cain... Cain is shorter than Nog and CC and probably has less lean mass than CC but is just chubby lol.
 
that kind of speaks to the evolution as well, doesnt it?
It speaks to the evolution of weight cutting at LHW and below, it isn't exactly proof that a good 225er couldn't hang at HW today. Look at Conor, RDA, Whittaker, Gastellum etc. "standing Small and Proud."
 
All the opposite, it has regressed.
 
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