Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[dmwalking]

BJJ is still effective, many fighters don't adapt it to MMA effectively though.

There's guys out there like Werdum, Jacare and Maia though that are dangerous anywhere on the ground.

Agreed. For some reason people are thinking that I'm questioning the effectiveness of BJJ. That's not the case. I know it's effective. My question is whether or not it's stopped evolving for MMA. Like I said, wrestlers learned how to defend subs and strike. Strikers learned how to stop takedowns and defend subs. Guys like Werdum and RDA have learned how to strike and get takedowns. But for the most part, I haven't really seen anything "new" or a new approach outside of Maia. So I ask, has it stopped evolving?

And I don't think it has. I just think it's evolving a lot slower because there are fewer pure BJJ guys converting to MMA so there's no real reason to evolve. But guys like Maia and Jacare are definitely adapting BJJ for MMA. Maia is currently the best back taker in the game.

 

[number9dream]

Because most of them stink, the ones that manage to at least one thing well like Conor tend to win.

Look at Ronda Rousey...She was just more athletic than most of the other girls, her hip throws are actually kinda stinky. A boxer took her down.

You see guys like Jones that aren't that good at striking win because his limbs are twice as long as the next guy and he pokes their eyes and stomps their knees from a great distance. lol

Not that he doesn't have legit skills but the guy is flat footed and has poor mobility. Doesn't really matter since he doesn't have to move, the other guy does.

Fights are being won on attributes mostly, not martial arts expertise.

Look at wonderboy, he's great but it wouldn't work so well without those loooong limbs. Would you say wonderboy is a great grappler? Probably not.

I feel like you are only seeing the negatives with Jones... It's definitely true his boxing can look really awkward (i.e pad vids where he throws himself off balance throwing a punch) but I think he is much more than just his excellent attributes.

Yeah without them he probably wouldn't be such an absolute god, but he'd still be an incredibly intelligent fighter (in the cage I mean) who seems to learn things really fast.

Choosing to look at his sloppy boxing and saying he's bad feels like a bad way to evaluate someone not competing in boxing.

 

[jack36767]

No, I said I trained and competed with and against high school and college trained wrestlers of similar training experience and do very respectably despite having no wrestling background.

It's not all that controversial, double unders work to stop shots, just like Gus did to Jones. Then I have my counters...

Just for the record I never claimed to beat D1 wrestlers, I'd probably get badly outworked. That is your claim and a very bold lie on your part. Shame on you.

But that's not comparing apples to apples, I'm a recreational player well past his prime.

Why does it take a D1 wrestler to beat me? You mock high school and "not serous enough" college wrestlers as not worthy, someone else called me "sandbagger". This is "no true scotsman" fallacy, it's bullshit.

Now you challenge me to "beat up" Jon Jones. Did you remember to beat up every fighter you criticized?

I guess if I don't like a movie I have to make a better one or shut up because you said so...lol

You don't see me overly critiquing fighters who don't hit wrestling to the standard I would expect in pure wrestling or say that because someone like Jones "has poor technique" to the level you are. Because I was actually a serious competitor I actually understand the fact that there are people who's technique 'doesn't look pretty' or correct but actually know how to show up and compete or fight and actually win. Jon Jones isn't the champion because of his reach and cheating...he's the champion because he was stubborn enough to win a 5 round war he literally didn't train for...and because he let his arm get fucked up by Belfort to the point he was out for almost a year...and still came back and submitted Belfort after dominating him with a fucked up arm. I think Jones is a shitty human being but I'm unbiased to know that's not why he wins...

In fact I know and have read numerous striking coaches and analysts who talk about the reason Francisco Cordiero has had such success as a coach is because while he doesn't produce the most "technical" products in mma. He is good at producing fighters. Which is way more important than being pretty with their technique

because "winning" is as much of a skill as your judo throws.The fighters I'm most critical of are ones like BJ Penn who were super duper technical...and never won a fight where the opponent wasn't broken after the first round...because anyone who's competed or coached at any high level understands that the mental aspect is FAR more important than the technical or physical aspect.

It's not a fallacy to say that you training long enough to hold your own against wrestling blue belts doesn't support your argument...and you didn't say you 'just hold your own'

You insult me I'll insult you, that's the deal kid. Treat people with respect and they'll respect you.

You guys have behaved like animals here, accused me of being some guy I've never met, put words in my mouth I didn't say...

I've tried to keep a good sense of humor about it...but honestly, I'm embarrassed for you.

This behavior is worse than any loss.

Animals? lol
And the reason I am so critical has to do with the fact that it is ALWAYS hobbyists who talk about how "untechnical" elite fighters are and people who've known throws and other techniques since Kindergarten are "just being stupid for not using them more" because it's "obvious" that they are there...

When people try to explain it isn't so easy at that level of competition and ask what level the "critical hobbyist" competed and trained at...they always make it sound like they have until when finally get called out...they go "wait, wait, wait, hey I'm just a hobbyist, stop being so mean"

 

[jack36767]

I feel like you are only seeing the negatives with Jones... It's definitely true his boxing can look really awkward (i.e pad vids where he throws himself off balance throwing a punch) but I think he is much more than just his excellent attributes.

Yeah without them he probably wouldn't be such an absolute god, but he'd still be an incredibly intelligent fighter (in the cage I mean) who seems to learn things really fast.

Choosing to look at his sloppy boxing and saying he's bad feels like a bad way to evaluate someone not competing in boxing.

The people who say that fighters like Jon Jones only win because of attributes are just bitter they weren't born with athletic gifts

 

[number9dream]

Eh when it comes to standup I wreck most BJJ people regardless of rank. You're a real good black BJJ or rec Judo BB, we'll probably trade.

I was thrown only once in a tournament when I missed weight, ended up in bottom of super heavy and got suplexed by a 280lb college wrestler.

Wrestling is only good because the guys are in super shape or massive. If he is not in great shape or same size, wrestling sucks.

I'm competitive in any pond as standup goes but anyone can get outworked by more athletic or much younger person.

If I lose, it's more likely because I have 20 years on most of these guys and don't train professionally.

If it takes the cream of the crop to beat an older recreational trainer, the art isn't that great.

Wrestling creates people who move like they were made of liquid steel. Don't agree with your assessment.

 

[Gambledub]

Agreed. For some reason people are thinking that I'm questioning the effectiveness of BJJ. That's not the case. I know it's effective. My question is whether or not it's stopped evolving for MMA. Like I said, wrestlers learned how to defend subs and strike. Strikers learned how to stop takedowns and defend subs. Guys like Werdum and RDA have learned how to strike and get takedowns. But for the most part, I haven't really seen anything "new" or a new approach outside of Maia. So I ask, has it stopped evolving?

And I don't think it has. I just think it's evolving a lot slower because there are fewer pure BJJ guys converting to MMA so there's no real reason to evolve. But guys like Maia and Jacare are definitely adapting BJJ for MMA. Maia is currently the best back taker in the game.

I would say a guy like Charles Oliveira is a great example of BJJ for MMA even though he was never a big pure BJJ guy. You also have guys like Killa B and Marcin Held doing work. Even though he's a scumbag Palhares approach was undeniably innovative. I'm excited to see what Ryan Hall brings too.

 

[TehGwarch]

I feel like you are only seeing the negatives with Jones... It's definitely true his boxing can look really awkward (i.e pad vids where he throws himself off balance throwing a punch) but I think he is much more than just his excellent attributes.

Yeah without them he probably wouldn't be such an absolute god, but he'd still be an incredibly intelligent fighter (in the cage I mean) who seems to learn things really fast.

Choosing to look at his sloppy boxing and saying he's bad feels like a bad way to evaluate someone not competing in boxing.

Yes, he's not a bad fighter at all.

I don't think he'd be where he is with an average reach though, sticking your hands out like that won't work for a Johny Hendricks. Hendricks is never beating wonderboy, too stumpy, he'll need 2x the skill to get close, maybe another life.

Height classes make more sense to me than weight classes. To me it's no accident that Gus did so well, his stats were not THAT far off but even he had big reach disadvantage.

It's nice when you chasse bas someone from a mile away taking no risk to yourself whatsoever. He is very eclectc.

 

[TehGwarch]

Wrestling creates people who move like they were made of liquid steel. Don't agree with your assessment.

Liquid steel? OK. haha

They do a lot of exercises for a long time, I admire that.

 

[TehGwarch]

The people who say that fighters like Jon Jones only win because of attributes are just bitter they weren't born with athletic gifts

I'm not sure being taller and lankier than everyone else is an athletic gift.

His footwork clumsy, hands are not fast. He just reach out and poke your eye. I won! I'm gifted! Thanks mom and dad. lol

Remind me of the 300lb white belt who "can beat purple belt". So gifted, don't be jealous. lol

 

[jack36767]

I'm not sure being taller and lankier than everyone else is an athletic gift.

His footwork clumsy, hands are not fast. He just reach out and poke your eye. I won! I'm gifted! Thanks mom and dad. lol

Remind me of the 300lb white belt who "can beat purple belt". So gifted, don't be jealous. lol

You're born with athletic abilities and physical attributes...people are born with things like natural explosiveness, heavy hips, and good reaction time, that others will never develop...no matter how hard they work..

Same way some people are born with physical attributes like reach, height etc... saying those attributes are the only reason they win is ignorant and they could not/would not win without them, shows you've never completed at a high level. Oh wait, Cormier only wins because he's explosive with his takedowns...oh wait, Anthony Johnson only wins because he cuts weight.

Btw, Jones is impressive BECAUSE he utilizes reach so well....there are a huge amount of fighters who don't take advantage of their reach...but hey let's not let facts get in the way

But hey he only wins because of eye pokes...and Gus getting a throwbye from double Unders when both were super slippery means that wrestling automatically can be stopped everytime...

Hey everyone! There a short cut, dont train hard and learn how to use what you were born with...learn a couple magical techniques...and if you lose..it's because he cheats with eye pokes

 

[jack36767]

Yes, he's not a bad fighter at all.

I don't think he'd be where he is with an average reach though, sticking your hands out like that won't work for a Johny Hendricks. Hendricks is never beating wonderboy, too stumpy, he'll need 2x the skill to get close, maybe another life.

Height classes make more sense to me than weight classes. To me it's no accident that Gus did so well, his stats were not THAT far off but even he had big reach disadvantage.

It's nice when you chasse bas someone from a mile away taking no risk to yourself whatsoever. He is very eclectc.

Um...Hendricks rocked Wonderboy and one little zig instead of zag..the fight is over immediately...along with the fact Hendricks can be more criticized for not taking Wonderboy serious, because that led to not having an adequate game plan.

And it's only "good" footwork if you move like McGregor or Wonderboy, forget individual styles or purpose. Frazier, Joe Louis and Foreman had terrible footwork. Am I right, no dancing or anything.

But hey you holding your own against wrestlers who aren't in mma. So that means you're qualified to say they should be throwing more...or that throwing a "competent" opponent in nogi is easy

 

[jack36767]

Liquid steel? OK. haha

They do a lot of exercises for a long time, I admire that.

Like I said, haven't gone with any high level wrestlers if you don't understand his point or what he's talking about.

But hey wrestling be like soo predictable and easy to stop and only works if you're in super duper shape..or strong...lol.

 

[Big_Chief_Stove]

Agreed. For some reason people are thinking that I'm questioning the effectiveness of BJJ. That's not the case. I know it's effective. My question is whether or not it's stopped evolving for MMA. Like I said, wrestlers learned how to defend subs and strike. Strikers learned how to stop takedowns and defend subs. Guys like Werdum and RDA have learned how to strike and get takedowns. But for the most part, I haven't really seen anything "new" or a new approach outside of Maia. So I ask, has it stopped evolving?

And I don't think it has. I just think it's evolving a lot slower because there are fewer pure BJJ guys converting to MMA so there's no real reason to evolve. But guys like Maia and Jacare are definitely adapting BJJ for MMA. Maia is currently the best back taker in the game.

Ryan Hall now too, he'll be bringing a lot of new adaptations to the table.

Wrestlers learned to neutralize the full guard. I'd like to see more people like Werdum bring back full guard attacks.

 

[Big_Chief_Stove]

Ryan Hall now too, he'll be bringing a lot of new adaptations to the table.

Wrestlers learned to neutralize the full guard. I'd like to see more people like Werdum bring back full guard attacks.

Beneil Dariush as well...One of these days Gary Tonon will start making waves in MMA too. Hopefully sooner, than later.

 

[TehGwarch]

Like I said, haven't gone with any high level wrestlers if you don't understand his point or what he's talking about.

But hey wrestling be like soo predictable and easy to stop and only works if you're in super duper shape..or strong...lol.

Right, but has to be super high level, otherwise they're nothing great. lol

None of the guys I've seen in UFC are like liquid steel and kickboxers can stop their takedown with double unders.

Doesn't save you from Judo though...

 

[TehGwarch]

Um...Hendricks rocked Wonderboy and one little zig instead of zag..the fight is over immediately...along with the fact Hendricks can be more criticized for not taking Wonderboy serious, because that led to not having an adequate game plan.

And it's only "good" footwork if you move like McGregor or Wonderboy, forget individual styles or purpose. Frazier, Joe Louis and Foreman had terrible footwork. Am I right, no dancing or anything.

But hey you holding your own against wrestlers who aren't in mma. So that means you're qualified to say they should be throwing more...or that throwing a "competent" opponent in nogi is easy

Noo watch again, he got fucked up bad, it was a one sided beat down. Wonderboy used him for target practice. There's no universe he wins standing against Thompson, too stumpy and no great skill to make up for it.

I never said it's easy but nothing's easy so you may as well...when you've got an opponent in an upper body clinch, you're in position for upper body throw. People say wrestler knows uchi mata? OK, do it, IDK where he learned it. It's not any harder to do ogoshi, koshi garuma and other hip throws no gi, grip is same.

Wonderboy made one mistake that almost got him taken down early in the fight....damn whizzer position.

Not a great place to be but it seems to be the standard "up against the cage" position now.. He was reaching over Johny's head a couple times too, dangerous stuff. Guys get taken down from here constantly but they have no better ideas, I assume they get this habit from wrestling.

He eventually realized he had to circle out but he should have had an underhook from the beginning or re-pummeled while circling.

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[TehGwarch]

You're born with athletic abilities and physical attributes...people are born with things like natural explosiveness, heavy hips, and good reaction time, that others will never develop...no matter how hard they work..

Same way some people are born with physical attributes like reach, height etc... saying those attributes are the only reason they win is ignorant and they could not/would not win without them, shows you've never completed at a high level. Oh wait, Cormier only wins because he's explosive with his takedowns...oh wait, Anthony Johnson only wins because he cuts weight.

Btw, Jones is impressive BECAUSE he utilizes reach so well....there are a huge amount of fighters who don't take advantage of their reach...but hey let's not let facts get in the way

But hey he only wins because of eye pokes...and Gus getting a throwbye from double Unders when both were super slippery means that wrestling automatically can be stopped everytime...

Hey everyone! There a short cut, dont train hard and learn how to use what you were born with...learn a couple magical techniques...and if you lose..it's because he cheats with eye pokes

He could stand still and put his hand on most of these guy's forehead and they'd swing and hit nothing but air.

Nobody else can get away with it. That's different from being explosive with take downs...it's just stupid at that point, you can't learn anything from watching him.

Gus did stop him and he took Jones down...a kickboxer...

You can learn something very valuable from watching Gus - how to hold your own with a genetic freak through sheer skill. All you will learn from watching Jones is "get longer limbs son".

One day Jones open up his academy, for ex-NBA players only. lol

 

[number9dream]

Noo watch again, he got fucked up bad, it was a one sided beat down. Wonderboy used him for target practice. There's no universe he wins standing against Thompson, too stumpy and no great skill to make up for it.

I never said it's easy but nothing's easy so you may as well...when you've got an opponent in an upper body clinch, you're in position for upper body throw. People say wrestler knows uchi mata? OK, do it, IDK where he learned it. It's not any harder to do ogoshi, koshi garuma and other hip throws no gi, grip is same.

Wonderboy made one mistake that almost got him taken down early in the fight....damn whizzer position.

Not a great place to be but it seems to be the standard "up against the cage" position now.. He was reaching over Johny's head a couple times too, dangerous stuff. Guys get taken down from here constantly but they have no better ideas, I assume they get this habit from wrestling.

He eventually realized he had to circle out but he should have had an underhook from the beginning or re-pummeled while circling.

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I do not think it's easy yo get an underhook on Hendricks against the cage. GSP couldn't even get an underhook consistently iirc.

Whizzer is the best you're going to get a lot of the time and there's plenty to work with from there.

 

[jack36767]

Right, but has to be super high level, otherwise they're nothing great. lol

None of the guys I've seen in UFC are like liquid steel and kickboxers can stop their takedown with double unders.

Doesn't save you from Judo though...

Ahhh now who's misconstruing who...my point is that if you had gone with high level wrestlers...that you didn't massively outweigh...you wouldn't be saying that wrestling only works with brute strength or having amazing cardio...but hey I beat blue belts when I started bjj so that automatically means bjj is overrated..just taking your logic to its conclusion

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Height classes make more sense to me than weight classes. To me it's no accident that Gus did so well, his stats were not THAT far off but even he had big reach disadvantage.

So you'd match up say George Roop against Cain because they're the same height? Or in boxing, Thomas Hearns (who somehow lost to a much shorter Hagler) against Joe Louis (or Joe Frazier or Mike Tyson)?

For that matter, shouldn't Struve and Semmy Schilt have been unbeatable given their height advantages?