Crime Guy RNCed on NY subway dies. Trial begins 10/21

[Andy Capp]

And there's the crux; people go to jail all the time for breaking the law with good intentions. And they should. It doesn't mean we have to invest negative emotion into hating someone because they broke the law, but the law should be applied evenly. In this case, someone died as a result of what probably were good intentions and, even though he was trying to help, he acted very recklessly and killed someone. I think he will walk, but I don't like it when the law is looked over because of who something happened to, rather than what happened to them.

That's been my feeling all along as well.

 

[emefer]

Here are the jury instructions that should be applicable to this case. There may be some minor changes.

NY JUSTIFICATION: USE OF DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE IN DEFENSE OF A PERSON – Law of Self Defense

lawofselfdefense.com

 

[Blayt7hh]

I should know since I am a nurse, though haven’t done direct patient care in a decade and you don’t need active CPR license to renew nursing license. But I checked and it said you still do CPR if there is a pulse but no breathing.

So he either had a pulse AND was breathing, so he died how? Or he had a pulse, but was not breathing and they did not do CPR.

like even if he had an anoxic brain injury and was already brain dead prior to dying, they would still try to save his life.

Eeeh that’s the guidelines for like cpr basics. For healthcare workers, you would start with rescue breathing and try to identify the cause so you can address it.

I’m not entirely sure why they teach that to basic life savers. I guess it’s because they don’t expect them to identify the problem and figure cardiac arrest will be coming along soon enough anyways.

 

[Blayt7hh]

His argument was that he was still breathing when cops got there and I am saying that doesn’t matter. He still choked him that led to his death. I think k he has a slim argument for self defense of others but to compare this to Kyle killing while being attacked is not accurate at all. He was being chased and struck with a skateboard and had a gun pointed at him. This guy was threatening and lunging at people at most. Not the same.

I read the autopsy report and the testimony of the doctor the defense used to undermine in it and it raises some interesting questions.

He had distended juglar veins, which means the heart probably was no longer able to get blood to and from head. The bulging happens because the veins are getting back up and start to bulge from all the blood building up in there. So it seems to me that something happened after the choke was completely released and he was in custody of the police.

It’s possible the swelling caused this. The guy had sickle cell though and the choke caused it to flare up according to the autopsy. So that too may have caused or contributed to the blockage to his brain. So if the sickle cell contributed or caused it, so do we hold Penny accountable? Do we lighten the sentence? It’s it like he could have known about the sickle cell after all.

I’m doing a little guesswork though. The testimony tidbits I was able to find with a quick google or annoyingly slim on the details. It actually kind of makes me suspicious of the autopsy too. Maybe that’s not fair and she’s being paraphrased by the news outlets though. It seems like we should have a pretty clear cut answer as to the cause of death but there isn’t.

As to the long debate over what the cops should have done, if his brain was cut off from blood from swelling or sickle cell there was nothing anyone could do for him.

 

[ShadowRun]

He did what all men should do and should be rewarded, fuck the scumbag who enabled this whole scenario...

This so why more and more men don’t step in when dangerous things are happening and people sit back and record . Sad to see , media and NPCs trying to make this a race baiting story

 

[koquerelle]

And there's the crux; people go to jail all the time for breaking the law with good intentions. And they should. It doesn't mean we have to invest negative emotion into hating someone because they broke the law, but the law should be applied evenly. In this case, someone died as a result of what probably were good intentions and, even though he was trying to help, he acted very recklessly and killed someone. I think he will walk, but I don't like it when the law is looked over because of who something happened to, rather than what happened to them.

It's a great post and I wish I had your wisdom, but I admit I'm not there because I have difficulties finding a balance between emotions from logic. I do think Penny has to face justice, but I had to deal with many Neelys when I lived in downtown Montreal and I know things can get out of hand quickly.

The whole mess is a major failure of the system and should lead to changes, but it sadly won't. The mentally ill have been brushed under the carpet and we as a society chose to turn a blind eye because we didn't have to foot the bill anymore. It's extremely sad.

 

[koquerelle]

“Penny’s critics see him as a white vigilante killer of a Black man who was behaving erratically and making dire statements but wasn’t armed and hadn’t assaulted or even touched anyone in the subway car.”

I have been assured by @Andy Capp that I am the only one that thinks there are any race issues in this case. That quote, and every SINGLE article that says Daniel Penny, who is white, killed Jordan Neely, who is black. And I am absolutely sure that antifa/palestine supporters would have raged and shut down the subway if Neely had been white in the same exact manner. That the same people holding up signs saying that Neely was lynched for being homeless would still be outside that courthouse.

Jesus, I have seen some stupid takes around here, but Andy needs to wipe some of the drool from his slack mouth

The bail amount tells the story.

 

[NoSmilez]

"When Raiser asked Chundru whether Neely could have died even if he hadn’t been placed in a chokehold, Chundru said “that’s correct.” And when asked whether a completely healthy individual would have died from the same chokehold, he said no."

 

[Andy Capp]

Here are the jury instructions that should be applicable to this case. There may be some minor changes.

NY JUSTIFICATION: USE OF DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE IN DEFENSE OF A PERSON – Law of Self Defense

lawofselfdefense.com

So, consider this from your source:

First, the defendant must have actually believed that ( specify ) was using or was about to use deadly physical force against him/her [or someone else], and that the defendant’s own use of deadly physical force was necessary to defend himself/herself [or someone else] from it; and

Second, a “reasonable person” in the defendant’s position, knowing what the defendant knew and being in the same circumstances, would have had those same beliefs.

Has anyone expressed the thought that the dead guy appeared ready to use deadly force against someone? Simply being abusive physically or otherwise is not adequate justification.

 

[nhbbear]

That's not the point of my interjection though, is it? Edit: The intent of my post was very clear, I think.

And why are you asking me? I never mentioned that.

It was in your quote. I was asking where it came from

 

[nhbbear]

I read the autopsy report and the testimony of the doctor the defense used to undermine in it and it raises some interesting questions.

He had distended juglar veins, which means the heart probably was no longer able to get blood to and from head. The bulging happens because the veins are getting back up and start to bulge from all the blood building up in there. So it seems to me that something happened after the choke was completely released and he was in custody of the police.

It’s possible the swelling caused this. The guy had sickle cell though and the choke caused it to flare up according to the autopsy. So that too may have caused or contributed to the blockage to his brain. So if the sickle cell contributed or caused it, so do we hold Penny accountable? Do we lighten the sentence? It’s it like he could have known about the sickle cell after all.

I’m doing a little guesswork though. The testimony tidbits I was able to find with a quick google or annoyingly slim on the details. It actually kind of makes me suspicious of the autopsy too. Maybe that’s not fair and she’s being paraphrased by the news outlets though. It seems like we should have a pretty clear cut answer as to the cause of death but there isn’t.

As to the long debate over what the cops should have done, if his brain was cut off from blood from swelling or sickle cell there was nothing anyone could do for him.

I see this like Floyd. Had penny not choked him, his sickle cell not anything else would have killed him. Like I have said, I am mixed on this case. I believe pennys actions killed him but I don’t necessarily think he was in the wrong. I am sick of these fucking aggressive fucks in the subways that constantly attack people and I see penny as the response to the system not dealing with them appropriately

 

[nhbbear]

The bail amount tells the story.

Yeah, because he is such a threat as a first time offender while they let guys like Neely out every time

 

[Blayt7hh]

I see this like Floyd. Had penny not choked him, his sickle cell not anything else would have killed him. Like I have said, I am mixed on this case. I believe pennys actions killed him but I don’t necessarily think he was in the wrong. I am sick of these fucking aggressive fucks in the subways that constantly attack people and I see penny as the response to the system not dealing with them appropriately

I get what you're saying and normally I would agree. Thing is, if the victim is the one making threats, being violent, whatever, and the reason he dies isn't a direct result of the perpetrators actions then should we hold him accountable though? It's not like Penny had no legitimate reason to choke him. It's not like he's privy to his medical history or knows what drugs he's on. That's on the person that chose to get violent.

There are some key difference with Floyd. It was the cops and he told them he couldn't breathe and they continued to crush him for 10 minutes without changing the restraint. There was an off duty EMT on site trying to see him that the cops wouldn't let in.

I was initially for punishing Penny when it seemed like the excessive and irresponsibly applied choke was the direct cause of death. But if it's not, I think it merits a lot of thought. I am now torn.

 

[Fluffernutter]

He held the choke for six minutes?

That seems beyond simply controlling the situation

 

[Andy Capp]

It was in your quote. I was asking where it came from

Not sure if serious. I was quoting you. Verbatim. What kind of drugs are you on and where can I get some?

 

[Andy Capp]

It was in your quote. I was asking where it came from

I beg your pardon. It was @GearSolidMetal I was responding to and who subsequently dodged the point. My apologies for getting some wires crossed.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

I beg your pardon. It was @GearSolidMetal I was responding to and who subsequently dodged the point. My apologies for getting some wires crossed.

Bitch please I'm not dodging anything.

 

[Andy Capp]

Bitch please I'm not dodging anything.

LOL @ you calling someone else a bitch. Your online persona is an argumentative robot in high heels. Shut up, princess.

 

[nhbbear]

I get what you're saying and normally I would agree. Thing is, if the victim is the one making threats, being violent, whatever, and the reason he dies isn't a direct result of the perpetrators actions then should we hold him accountable though? It's not like Penny had no legitimate reason to choke him. It's not like he's privy to his medical history or knows what drugs he's on. That's on the person that chose to get violent.

There are some key difference with Floyd. It was the cops and he told them he couldn't breathe and they continued to crush him for 10 minutes without changing the restraint. There was an off duty EMT on site trying to see him that the cops wouldn't let in.

I was initially for punishing Penny when it seemed like the excessive and irresponsibly applied choke was the direct cause of death. But if it's not, I think it merits a lot of thought. I am now torn.

Like I said, I believe penny killed him but I want to see him get off because number 1, I am sick of the violence going unchecked and 2, it will piss off all the people I hate that shut down subways and streets over another shitbag they wouldn’t care about if it wasn’t penny ir someone like him.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

LOL @ you calling someone else a bitch. Your online persona is an argumentative robot in high heels. Shut up, princess.

I'm argumentative because I know I'm right.
And I argue through your old and tired tactics of claiming everybody is dodging your points although I clearly addressed them.

You don't want to accept logical explanations? Thats your problem, and its a common trait amongst those who share your political philosophy to ignore everything not within your worldview.

Your level of delusion is exactly why your side lost the 2024 elections by wide margins, and everyone else but you saw it coming months in advance.

Cry harder.