Guy Mezger and the "Evolution" theory

George Carlin said:
Marco Ruas frequents a sushi place by my old house. I used to get sake drunk all the time and bug the fuck out of him when I was like 17. Just try to talk to him and stuff when he was trying to eat with his family. I have never stopped being embarrassed about that, and I think about it everytime someone brings him up... Allan Goes is also a good friend of the family. Used to come over for Christmas and stuff. Him and Marco have some sort of beef from way back when. I used to talk Marco up, also drunk and 17, to Allan. I was the worst kid.
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Allan had awesome fights. He always put on a good show.
 
HavokHarmon said:
I think that the bulk of the evolution has occured in training, guys have a way better understanding of how to train effectively than they did in the 90s and early 2000s
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Also fighters now are usually good in 2 areas.

Boxing and takedown defense

Or

Muay thai and jiu jitsu

Or

Wrestling and boxing

Or Judo and striking etc

In the 90s everyone was 1 dimesional. Mark Coleman later developed enough submission defense he could effectively (except vs Fedor) wreck people with ground and pound and not be submitted. Anderson had elite striking and good bjj but bad takedown defense, bad wrestling and wasent the storngest or most explosive. I dont see MMA evolving past what it is now except that guys will be better conditioned. I think most will stay very skilled at 2 areas maybe 3 but mot everywhere
 
Snowblindlove said:
Also fighters now are usually good in 2 areas.

Boxing and takedown defense

Or

Muay thai and jiu jitsu

Or

Wrestling and boxing

Or Judo and striking etc

In the 90s everyone was 1 dimesional. Mark Coleman later developed enough submission defense he could effectively (except vs Fedor) wreck people with ground and pound and not be submitted. Anderson had elite striking and good bjj but bad takedown defense, bad wrestling and wasent the storngest or most explosive. I dont see MMA evolving past what it is now except that guys will be better conditioned. I think most will stay very skilled at 2 areas maybe 3 but mot everywhere
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For sure, the topic of evolution is the subject of a lot of threads it seems and my position really hasn’t changed.

I think on average fighters are much better today than they were even 10 or 15 years ago, but most of that movement has occurred in the middle of the distribution, so it’s very possible for the average to be much greater but for it to be about the same or potentially worse at the elite levels because it’s populated by outliers.
 
jx820 said:
Not the guy I'd personally have hung my argument on. Vitor and Hendo remained competitive for like 20 years, that might have been a stronger case.

I think it's pretty clear that the skills that worked in the mid-90s are largely still effective. Leg kicks, knees from a thai plum and triangle chokes have stuck around for a reason.

On the other hand:
The average quality has improved (i.e. all eras had some greats, but earlier eras had much shallower divisions) and that is an evolution. The #20 guy is much better today that the #20 guy in 1998 even if the #1 guy may be competitive today.

There were techniques used back then that would never work today (e.g. can opener neck crank isn't EVER going to work in a major org again) and there are moves that are common today that were not popular even 5 years ago (e.g. calf kicks were very uncommon and largely considered ineffective prior to Bendo and now you see them on every card. Same with the teep to the quad. Royce was throwing it at UFC 1 but it wasn't considered a fight changing strike till Jon Jones started stomping the holy hell out of people's quads).

The sport's global spread has introduced new things as it went. Fighters bringing little things from their regional folk styles and making them popular (e.g. the Dagestani's didn't invent most of what we see them do, but they refined it, and did it with a tenacity and sophistication that now everyone is trying to emulate what they bring to the table. Same with point karate fighters 10 years ago neither karate, nor collapsing the pocket was new, but that style was something completely new). No single element seems unique, but in combination, they are unlike anything that the sport has seen and can be incredibly difficult to train for.
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Bro..... Can opener neck crank just won Glover the belt. Are you retarded?
 
Jewish Lightning said:
"Evolution" is over blown cap.
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I do think that it really depends on what exactly people hear when others claim "evolution".

it is natural for any sport to evolve.
Add the current technology (that was not available in the past), and it is an obvious conclusion.

Let me give you a comparison in another sport: Soccer.

Players now run almost 10 times more than old timers. They measure everything. From speed, heartbeat of players, dashing and sustained speed, etc.
The positions are analyzed by computers, field coverages, etc.

It all allows the sport to evolve and grow.

Does that mean Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini and many others would not be able to play in today's arenas?
I highly doubt that!
IMHO they would still be stars of their teams.

There's no substitute to talent, and that is the bottom line IMHO.

So yeah fighters of 20 years ago would still do well in today's game. especially if they could get the benefits of technology that was not available to them then.

but regardless, the sport did evolve. That is simply undeniable.
 
Dionysian said:
HW, LHW, and MW have declined. HW hugely so (relative to 15 years ago), LHW as well (relative to 15 years ago), MW moderately so (relative to 8 years ago). WW has remained about the same.

All the lower divisions have improved. So the general trend (IMHO) is the higher the division you go, the less the "evolution" we've seen for that division
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14 years ago Forrest was the champ at lhw.

We’ll look back at lhw differently in the future than we do now when jiri, ankalaev, rakic, and others have more fights behind them. Lhw 15 years ago was in flux before jones took over.
 
There is more money in the sport, more places it is mainstream, more opportunities globally to make a living fighting and more places to train. The idea that it’s going backwards is a bit nonsensical given those facts.
 
jx820 said:
Not the guy I'd personally have hung my argument on. Vitor and Hendo remained competitive for like 20 years, that might have been a stronger case.

I think it's pretty clear that the skills that worked in the mid-90s are largely still effective. Leg kicks, knees from a thai plum and triangle chokes have stuck around for a reason.

On the other hand:
The average quality has improved (i.e. all eras had some greats, but earlier eras had much shallower divisions) and that is an evolution. The #20 guy is much better today that the #20 guy in 1998 even if the #1 guy may be competitive today.

There were techniques used back then that would never work today (e.g. can opener neck crank isn't EVER going to work in a major org again) and there are moves that are common today that were not popular even 5 years ago (e.g. calf kicks were very uncommon and largely considered ineffective prior to Bendo and now you see them on every card. Same with the teep to the quad. Royce was throwing it at UFC 1 but it wasn't considered a fight changing strike till Jon Jones started stomping the holy hell out of people's quads).

The sport's global spread has introduced new things as it went. Fighters bringing little things from their regional folk styles and making them popular (e.g. the Dagestani's didn't invent most of what we see them do, but they refined it, and did it with a tenacity and sophistication that now everyone is trying to emulate what they bring to the table. Same with point karate fighters 10 years ago neither karate, nor collapsing the pocket was new, but that style was something completely new). No single element seems unique, but in combination, they are unlike anything that the sport has seen and can be incredibly difficult to train for.
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Overeem also
 
Jewish Lightning said:


You see lots of talk today about evolution and how much the sport has "evolved" and how the guys of today are too evolved and too skilled for the guys from 20 years ago.

This is number one bullshit brathers. Guy Mezger was the perfect example of how well rounded guys were at the highest level 20 years ago.

He was quick, he was athletic, he was a professional level kick boxer who had a solid jab and an impressive right hand and he threw a variety of kicks with both legs, low and high with speed and power. He also had good head movement and knew how to roll with strikes. These are all signs of a well rounded striker.

Some would argue that his grappliig was even better than his striking as he was a state champion wrestler, a brown belt in BJJ and a deep understanding of submission grappling from years of training with the Shamrocks at the Lions Den.

Mezger spent lots of time on the ground with prime Arona and Lil Nog and was never in any danger. He's only been submitted 3 times in 46 fights and had 6 submission wins of his own and submitted the likes of Tito Ortiz who had only been submitted one other time in his whole career by Mezgers training partner Frank Shamrock.

Not only was he technical, but he also had great heart and didn't shy away from a brawl and happily threw down, toe to toe with some of the biggest and deadliest hitters in his division.

Mezger was in tremendous shape and could fight at a high pace for a whole 10 minute first round and then put in two more 5 minute rounds at a decent pace.

When you put all these attributes together you have an evolved, well rounded and comprehensive fighter which could fight on the highest level in any era.

Sorry but the sport isnt so "evolved" that a guy like Guy Mezger didn't have what it takes to be in there with the likes of Anthony Smith, Brunson and Vettori. I don't buy that bullshit for a second.

Don't get me wrong there has certainly been an element of evolution on MMA, especially in the lighter divisions but its overblown to make the UFC seem like its more elite in terms of skill than it really is.

This obvious and clever marketing gimmick has worked wonders on contemporary UFC fans and its obvious because they're so dismissive and disrespectful of the previous eras and think men didnt know how to fight 20 years ago.

The truth is the HW and LHW divisions are weaker than the HW and LHW divisions from the last two generations and the MW division is weaker today than it was from 2010-2014.

I don't know why this is but it is and it just proves that the top guys from before are just as skilled as some of the top guys of today. Pushing the evolution theory down peoples throats doesn't change anything. Someone like Guy Mezger with his skillset from 20 years ago could easily mix it up with today's top 10 MWs.

Would he dominate everyone? Obviously not. He would probably have mixed results but he'd still be competitive and the sport isn't so "evolved" that he doesn't belong.

"Evolution" is over blown cap.
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Agree with all of that and have been saying it for years.
 
Weight cutting is extreme in modern MMA.

Guy Mezger today would be 185, maybe even 170.

Compare his skills to guys at those weights, not the leftovers of 205 and above.
 
George Carlin said:
Evolution will happen, but I think it is happening much slower than people think it is.
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People thought everyone would be GSP by now. It didnt happen like that though. Turns out there is only one GSP
 
theincognito said:
Weight cutting is extreme in modern MMA.

Guy Mezger today would be 185, maybe even 170.

Compare his skills to guys at those weights, not the leftovers of 205 and above.
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Why? If he fought HW's and LHW's thats who he trained to fight against,who he pit his skills against.

Leftovers? what do you mean?
 
HHJ said:
Why? If he fought HW's and LHW's thats who he trained to fight against,who he pit his skills against.

Leftovers? what do you mean?
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Most of the HW's he fought were barely over 200 pounds without cutting. Today's MW's, even some WW's, are walking around at similar weights.

As for leftovers, that's mostly what the HW and LHW divisions have now after extreme weight cutting puts fighters who should be in those divisions lower.
 
Jewish Lightning said:


You see lots of talk today about evolution and how much the sport has "evolved" and how the guys of today are too evolved and too skilled for the guys from 20 years ago.

This is number one bullshit brathers. Guy Mezger was the perfect example of how well rounded guys were at the highest level 20 years ago.

He was quick, he was athletic, he was a professional level kick boxer who had a solid jab and an impressive right hand and he threw a variety of kicks with both legs, low and high with speed and power. He also had good head movement and knew how to roll with strikes. These are all signs of a well rounded striker.

Some would argue that his grappliig was even better than his striking as he was a state champion wrestler, a brown belt in BJJ and a deep understanding of submission grappling from years of training with the Shamrocks at the Lions Den.

Mezger spent lots of time on the ground with prime Arona and Lil Nog and was never in any danger. He's only been submitted 3 times in 46 fights and had 6 submission wins of his own and submitted the likes of Tito Ortiz who had only been submitted one other time in his whole career by Mezgers training partner Frank Shamrock.

Not only was he technical, but he also had great heart and didn't shy away from a brawl and happily threw down, toe to toe with some of the biggest and deadliest hitters in his division.

Mezger was in tremendous shape and could fight at a high pace for a whole 10 minute first round and then put in two more 5 minute rounds at a decent pace.

When you put all these attributes together you have an evolved, well rounded and comprehensive fighter which could fight on the highest level in any era.

Sorry but the sport isnt so "evolved" that a guy like Guy Mezger didn't have what it takes to be in there with the likes of Anthony Smith, Brunson and Vettori. I don't buy that bullshit for a second.

Don't get me wrong there has certainly been an element of evolution on MMA, especially in the lighter divisions but its overblown to make the UFC seem like its more elite in terms of skill than it really is.

This obvious and clever marketing gimmick has worked wonders on contemporary UFC fans and its obvious because they're so dismissive and disrespectful of the previous eras and think men didnt know how to fight 20 years ago.

The truth is the HW and LHW divisions are weaker than the HW and LHW divisions from the last two generations and the MW division is weaker today than it was from 2010-2014.

I don't know why this is but it is and it just proves that the top guys from before are just as skilled as some of the top guys of today. Pushing the evolution theory down peoples throats doesn't change anything. Someone like Guy Mezger with his skillset from 20 years ago could easily mix it up with today's top 10 MWs.

Would he dominate everyone? Obviously not. He would probably have mixed results but he'd still be competitive and the sport isn't so "evolved" that he doesn't belong.

"Evolution" is over blown cap.
Click to expand...


"Guy Mezger was good therefore the sport hasn't evolved"
 
theincognito said:
Weight cutting is extreme in modern MMA.

Guy Mezger today would be 185, maybe even 170.

Compare his skills to guys at those weights, not the leftovers of 205 and above.
Click to expand...

Guy Mezger would be a pretty big MW by modern standards, definitely not a WW.

But he actually lost - even if in close decs - to the two WWs he fought in Pride: Shoji and Sakuraba
 
theincognito said:
Most of the HW's he fought were barely over 200 pounds without cutting. Today's MW's, even some WW's, are walking around at similar weights.

As for leftovers, that's mostly what the HW and LHW divisions have now after extreme weight cutting puts fighters who should be in those divisions lower.
Click to expand...


CroCop fought Minowa in the GP.


Minowa with proper training and weight cut is smaller than Usman.
 
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