Guy Mezger and the "Evolution" theory

[R Palhares]

I believe the sport has evolved more in terms of training methods rather than the skills you are able to apply. As an example we can see weight cutting - back in the day you would suffer to shed the weight, nowadays you got guys like Dolce and Lockhart there to make it a bit easier, just so the fighter can be at their best on fight night.

Back in the day chute boxe and Lions den boys sparred hard non-stop, whereas nowadays Holloway and R. Lawler has shown us that sparring isn't really as necessary as we first were led to believe. I know most people like to mock him, but Connor training with movement coach Ido wasn't as stiff as the boxer we have witnessed in the last few fights (and no, I'm not a Mcgregor fan).

Point being knowledge is more accessible to MMA fighters which brings out better versions of them. Mezger may very well have run through everyone you mentioned if he had the same facilities and knowledge about sports science that modern fighters have.

 

[mister piscadinha]

Yup, nothing has changed from the days when Randy Couture trained boxing and wrestling separately, there was no such thing as MMA classes and figured out himself in the cage on the fight night how to combine it. Eeeeeverything is the same.

my guy, black beast lost to HUNT and CIGANO, two dinossaurs from the 00's
nothing changed, in fact, heavier weight classes got worst, wake up

 

[Midget Boxer]

You see lots of talk today about evolution and how much the sport has "evolved" and how the guys of today are too evolved and too skilled for the guys from 20 years ago.

This is number one bullshit brathers. Guy Mezger was the perfect example of how well rounded guys were at the highest level 20 years ago.

He was quick, he was athletic, he was a professional level kick boxer who had a solid jab and an impressive right hand and he threw a variety of kicks with both legs, low and high with speed and power. He also had good head movement and knew how to roll with strikes. These are all signs of a well rounded striker.

Some would argue that his grappliig was even better than his striking as he had good wrestling, a brown belt in BJJ and a deep understanding of submission grappling from years of training with the Shamrocks at the Lions Den.

Mezger spent lots of time on the ground with prime Arona and Lil Nog and was never in any danger. He's only been submitted 3 times in 46 fights and had 6 submission wins of his own and submitted the likes of Tito Ortiz who had only been submitted one other time in his whole career by Mezgers training partner Frank Shamrock.

Not only was he technical, but he also had great heart and didn't shy away from a brawl and happily threw down, toe to toe with some of the biggest and deadliest hitters in his division.

Mezger was in tremendous shape and could fight at a high pace for a whole 10 minute first round and then put in two more 5 minute rounds at a decent pace.

When you put all these attributes together you have an evolved, well rounded and comprehensive fighter which could fight on the highest level in any era.

Sorry but the sport isnt so "evolved" that a guy like Guy Mezger didn't have what it takes to be in there with the likes of Anthony Smith, Brunson and Vettori. I don't buy that bullshit for a second.

Don't get me wrong there has certainly been an element of evolution on MMA, especially in the lighter divisions but its overblown to make the UFC seem like its more elite in terms of skill than it really is.

This obvious and clever marketing gimmick has worked wonders on contemporary UFC fans and its obvious because they're so dismissive and disrespectful of the previous eras and think men didnt know how to fight 20 years ago.

The truth is the HW and LHW divisions are weaker than the HW and LHW divisions from the last two generations and the MW division is weaker today than it was from 2010-2014.

I don't know why this is but it is and it just proves that the top guys from before are just as skilled as some of the top guys of today. Pushing the evolution theory down peoples throats doesn't change anything. Someone like Guy Mezger with his skillset from 20 years ago could easily mix it up with today's top 10 MWs.

Would he dominate everyone? Obviously not. He would probably have mixed results but he'd still be competitive and the sport isn't so "evolved" that he doesn't belong.

"Evolution" is over blown cap.

The LW, FW and BW divisions are at their all time best. But nonetheless, prime BJ Penn and Aldo would be champs today

 

[Jewish Lightning]

my guy, black beast lost to HUNT and CIGANO, two dinossaurs from the 00's
nothing changed, in fact, heavier weight classes got worst, wake up

Facts

 

[fedorthegoat777]

Agree.
I guess the theory is that today people can start training mma at a young age and train mma directly. Instead of going into the other disciplines individually.

But no one really does that. Mma as a sport isn't really available. Everyone goes into wrestling or something to start.

And nothing wrong with mastering a few individual sports. Why not win a high school wrestling championship. Box in college and get good then pick up the bjj black belt as you started training in that also as a child. Turn pro in MMA after college.

 

[pankrat]

Mezger had very solid basics all-around.
Top fighters from back in the day often point to athleticism as the main "evolution" in following generations and low work rate / gassing out was one of Guy's shortage in his career, along with questionable durability.

Boxing defense was his biggest flaw technically imo, good work at kickboxing range but lacked head movement and could get hurt by rather sloppy punches.
Those are the advantages a guy as Vettori would enjoy over Mezger imo, if not in a technical battle beats him with endurance and durability.

I dont think even the best version of Mezger could replicate what the bigger Jan did nor pose much of a threat to Izzy, but could have been a more interesting challenge for GSP than cyclop Bisping in modern 2017.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Mezger had very solid basics all-around.
Top fighters from back in the day often point to athleticism as the main "evolution" in following generations and low work rate / gassing out was one of Guy's shortage in his career, along with questionable durability.

Boxing defense was his biggest flaw technically imo, good work at kickboxing range but lacked head movement and could get hurt by rather sloppy punches.
Those are the advantages a guy as Vettori would enjoy over Mezger imo, if not in a technical battle beats him with endurance and durability.

I dont think even the best version of Mezger could replicate what the bigger Jan did nor pose much of a threat to Izzy, but could have been a more interesting challenge for GSP than cyclop Bisping in modern 2017.

No one is saying Mezger would be elite today but I don't think the sport is so "evolved" that he would be lower level than guys like Anthony Smith, Brunson or Darren Till.

 

[pankrat]

Apart from this being a terrible take, Mezger was a product of the Shamrock's and Lion's Den which was arguably the best camp/team at the time and an anomaly in terms of skills you could learn under them because of their experience in Japan which had already been doing vale tudo fights. Modern MMA being born in the US is pretty much a result of fights taking place in a cage, otherwise mixed style fights had long been underway in Japan

Also, Frank Shamrock was a well-rounded MMA fighter even before Mezger, however the sport has definitely evolved well beyond the skillset they presented. You now have guys like Izzy with pure Kickboxing backgrounds able to pick apart well-rounded guys like Whitaker, you have fighters that can literally do it all Usman. There are pure grapplers like Demian Maia, and Mackenzie that dominate through having enough boxing to get his hands on you. I'm barely scratching the surface here, not to mention just pure athletes or freaks of nature like Jon Jones.

No matter how well-rounded Mezger is the sport has evolved, and he would get destroyed by any of the guys I've mentioned here. Hell Frank Shamrock would stand a better chance because he has more tools in the shed, and look at what Nick Diaz did to him. Mezger was closer to a Forest Griffin who is the natural evolution of Mezger, most LHW's today have way more tools than Griffin had because they can train better, have better nutrition, and have coaches that are invested in seeing their fighters evolve. There's a reason the fight game passes guys up. Im not saying Mezger couldn't survive in today's landscape because he truly was a well-rounded guy however the game has definitely evolved, saying otherwise is a fallacy and low-key ignorant.

Not sure what guys do you mean that would "destroy" Mezger but if Arona or Nogueira not only didnt but arguably got beat, not that sure Maia and Usman would "destroy" him.

I'd say Mezger by early '00s was a better fighter - and bigger - than Frank and would be more competitive with today ranked MWs, at least for the first 10 minuts of the fight....

Not sure if I agree with that theory of yours about Forrest Griffin being "the natural evolution" of Mezger BTW but Usman and Maia would not be favoured to "destroy" prime Griffin.

 

[Chubi]

Maybe Mezguer was able to showcase that kind of skills because the level was way lower back then ? Evolution of the sport also means that the global skill level increased a lot, you can't deny that today's average pro MMA fighter is way more skilled that one from 2000's.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

You should ask a mod for a pro account.

No queiro

My initial account had one and I quickly made my “stealth” one

Sherdog is brutal, and at the end of the day, Im one of the guys too and a fan from before, to after fighting.

I still train tho. Since ‘97 I have been. Im 42 and in great shape tapping out youngsters every week.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

You see lots of talk today about evolution and how much the sport has "evolved" and how the guys of today are too evolved and too skilled for the guys from 20 years ago.

This is number one bullshit brathers. Guy Mezger was the perfect example of how well rounded guys were at the highest level 20 years ago.

He was quick, he was athletic, he was a professional level kick boxer who had a solid jab and an impressive right hand and he threw a variety of kicks with both legs, low and high with speed and power. He also had good head movement and knew how to roll with strikes. These are all signs of a well rounded striker.

Some would argue that his grappliig was even better than his striking as he had good wrestling, a brown belt in BJJ and a deep understanding of submission grappling from years of training with the Shamrocks at the Lions Den.

Mezger spent lots of time on the ground with prime Arona and Lil Nog and was never in any danger. He's only been submitted 3 times in 46 fights and had 6 submission wins of his own and submitted the likes of Tito Ortiz who had only been submitted one other time in his whole career by Mezgers training partner Frank Shamrock.

Not only was he technical, but he also had great heart and didn't shy away from a brawl and happily threw down, toe to toe with some of the biggest and deadliest hitters in his division.

Mezger was in tremendous shape and could fight at a high pace for a whole 10 minute first round and then put in two more 5 minute rounds at a decent pace.

When you put all these attributes together you have an evolved, well rounded and comprehensive fighter which could fight on the highest level in any era.

Sorry but the sport isnt so "evolved" that a guy like Guy Mezger didn't have what it takes to be in there with the likes of Anthony Smith, Brunson and Vettori. I don't buy that bullshit for a second.

Don't get me wrong there has certainly been an element of evolution on MMA, especially in the lighter divisions but its overblown to make the UFC seem like its more elite in terms of skill than it really is.

This obvious and clever marketing gimmick has worked wonders on contemporary UFC fans and its obvious because they're so dismissive and disrespectful of the previous eras and think men didnt know how to fight 20 years ago.

The truth is the HW and LHW divisions are weaker than the HW and LHW divisions from the last two generations and the MW division is weaker today than it was from 2010-2014.

I don't know why this is but it is and it just proves that the top guys from before are just as skilled as some of the top guys of today. Pushing the evolution theory down peoples throats doesn't change anything. Someone like Guy Mezger with his skillset from 20 years ago could easily mix it up with today's top 10 MWs.

Would he dominate everyone? Obviously not. He would probably have mixed results but he'd still be competitive and the sport isn't so "evolved" that he doesn't belong.

"Evolution" is over blown cap.

There's the evolution of the sport, and there's the evolution of the individual.

Given that, now, the vast majority - if not all - fighters in the UFC are good at everything, more or less, shows the sport has evolved massively.

That the best guys two decades ago could compete now doesn't mean the sport hasn't evolved.

That's a false argument.

There will always be fighters who set out a blueprint, or introduce something new, and that will then be assimilated over time by fighters in the future.

There's literally no way to argue against the fact the sport is constantly evolving if you look at the median-level fighter.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Maybe Mezguer was able to showcase that kind of skills because the level was way lower back then ? Evolution of the sport also means that the global skill level increased a lot, you can't deny that today's average pro MMA fighter is way more skilled that one from 2000's.

Spending extended periods of time on the ground with Lil Nog and Arona without being in danger isn't lower level competition. Lil Nog is a De La Riva blackbelt in BJJ and Arona was a multi time ADCC champion. This was high level competition.

Knocking down a prime Liddell with a single punch was unprecedented at the time. Chuck was one of the best and most powerful strikers in the division then and had an iron chin.

Mezger had high level skills that would have translated to any era.

 

[griffithberserk]

Mezger is one of my all time favs. His fights always just had that excitement factor and it was obvious he was one of the more well rounded/skilled guys around at the time.

Think I'm gonna go dig up some old Pride dvds now!

 

[textwarrior]

I think if you placed Guy Metzger or any top athlete 20 years ago or more today they would be just as good but better versions of themselves but their old version would do very well too..not too far behind today…

 

[560ti]

Mezger was one of the early extremely well rounded guys.

Was a state champion in wrestling, brown belt in BJJ, and professional kickboxer.

Pretty fucking good stats for a dude whose career was pretty much all 90s. One of the few old school dudes who would fair well present day with a modern camp (especially since he would be a middleweight and not a LHW).

I had 2 stints where I trained at his gym (2010-2012 and 2015-2016).

He would of made an amazing coach but his mind was so focused on other ventures (got a doctorate in holistic medicine/started a clinic, was president of HDNet fights, ran a gym instead of having some else do it).

He would of been amazing if like ATT had hired him and paid him a salary to ONLY focus on coaching

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Mezger was one of the early extremely well rounded guys.

Was a state champion in wrestling, brown belt in BJJ, and professional kickboxer.

Would most likely be a middleweight in todays landscape. Great fighter

Facts. Great post.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Partly true, partly speculative.

I think just the understanding we have today about head trauma means a lot in terms of training.

As far as the actual regiments go there’s just so many interviews with guys who trained during the 90s especially where they talk about how they really had had no idea how to train for the sport that it kind of goes beyond speculation at this point.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

I think just the understanding we have today about head trauma means a lot in terms of training.

As far as the actual regiments go there’s just so many interviews with guys who trained during the 90s especially where they talk about how they really had had no idea how to train for the sport that it kind of goes beyond speculation at this point.

Mezger had 46 fights and is fine today. Id love to see which fighters from today will make it to that many fights with their training/sparring/diet/recovery systems.

 

[Dr. Rose]

Spending extended periods of time on the ground with Lil Nog and Arona without being in danger isn't lower level competition. Lil Nog is a De La Riva blackbelt in BJJ and Arona was a multi time ADCC champion. This was high level competition.

Knocking down a prime Liddell with a single punch was unprecedented at the time. Chuck was one of the best and most powerful strikers in the division then and had an iron chin.

Mezger had high level skills that would have translated to any era.

Isn't Sherdog amazing? People praise Pride all the time, yet the mma "level was way lower back then." Mezger had success in Pride and the UFC. He beat Sakuraba when he was beating everyone.
Sometimes I think people say the sport is evolving when really they are talking about a technique or strategy becoming vogue (or rediscovered) for awhile. Jim Arvanitis was doing MMA in the '60s and '70s. I think some of his guys would have been alright today. To think that someone like Mezger (or either of the Shamrock's from the '90s, pre Ken's knee problems) could not compete today is kind of nuts. They were the best of the best back then, to think that could not compete at all today is mind boggling.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Isn't Sherdog amazing? People praise Pride all the time, yet the mma "level was way lower back then." Mezger had success in Pride and the UFC. He beat Sakuraba when he was beating everyone.
Sometimes I think people say the sport is evolving when really they are talking about a technique or strategy becoming vogue (or rediscovered) for awhile. Jim Arvanitis was doing MMA in the '60s and '70s. I think some of his guys would have been alright today. To think that someone like Mezger (or either of the Shamrock's from the '90s, pre Ken's knee problems) could not compete today is kind of nuts. They were the best of the best back then, to think that could not compete at all today is mind boggling.

Agreed