Opinion Guns rights and domestic violence protections collide at US Supreme Court

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By Andrew Chung
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Nov 6 (Reuters) - When a New Orleans-based appeals court struck down a federal law aimed at protecting victims of domestic violence from firearms - a matter that the U.S. Supreme Court takes up on Tuesday - Phil Sorrells, the conservative gun-owning Tarrant County district attorney in Texas, disagreed.

"When they're involved in this intimate partner violence, they don't need to have access to weapons that are going to ramp up this violence even more," Sorrells said in an interview. "We think that this is a small restriction on your rights that's justified."

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The law at issue makes it a crime for a person under a domestic violence restraining order to have a gun. The case represents the latest major gun rights dispute to be argued before the Supreme Court, whose 6-3 conservative majority has taken an expansive view of the right to "keep and bear arms" under the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment.

A Texas man named Zackey Rahimi, who according to court records was the subject of such an order after assaulting his girlfriend in Tarrant County and pleaded guilty to violating the law, has challenged it as a Second Amendment violation.

In a nation bitterly divided over how to address firearms violence, Republicans and conservatives typically want fewer gun restrictions while Democrats and liberals often promote gun control. And in this case, many gun rights groups and conservative or libertarian legal scholars support Rahimi's challenge, while many liberal and gun safety organizations oppose it.

But the case has also scrambled these assumptions a bit.
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Sorrells, for instance, is a conservative Republican who filed a brief supporting the law. Meanwhile, some public defenders, who represent indigent clients and often embrace liberal causes such as combating racial injustice in policing and sentencing, have urged the justices to strike it down. Rahimi is represented by a public defender.

"This particular case involves a range of issues - from the right to keep and bear arms to over-criminalization, to things in between - that is really challenging people's worldviews," University of Wyoming law professor and gun rights expert George Mocsary said. "You're getting this kind of wide-scale questioning of fundamental beliefs, and of how to deal with conflicting beliefs, from all across the political and ideological spectrum."
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The Supreme Court will hear an appeal by President Joe Biden's administration of a ruling by the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that the law violates the Second Amendment in light of a 2022 ruling by the justices that set a stringent new test to determine the legality of gun restrictions.

Sorrells, a Republican who won election as district attorney with former President Donald Trump's endorsement, called the 5th Circuit's decision wrong because the Second Amendment, like other constitutional rights, is not absolute.

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'HISTORICAL TRADITION'

The 5th Circuit based its decision on the Supreme Court's ruling called New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen ruling, which required that gun laws be "consistent with the nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation" in order to survive a Second Amendment challenge.

Biden's administration has said the law should survive because of the long tradition in the United States of taking guns from people deemed dangerous. It also emphasized that a gun's presence gun substantially increases the chances that a domestic violence incident turn deadly.

Rahimi was charged after police found guns in his possession while he was under a domestic violence restraining order after he assaulted his girlfriend in a parking lot, dragging her and later threatening to shoot her, court papers showed.
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The case has attracted dozens of briefs seeking to sway the justices. Some - but not all - groups of public defenders urged the justices to invalidate the law, arguing that restraining orders that disarm their clients are often too easily obtained and procedurally unfair for defendants.

Some public defender groups also supported the Bruen ruling because it toppled a New York gun regulation they argued primarily targeted Black and Hispanic people.

University of Michigan Law School professor Eve Brensike Primus said while some people might be surprised that public defenders would argue against taking guns from people under restraining orders, they are seeking to ensure that an expanded Second Amendment applies to their clients "and not just the people who have wealth or who are privileged."

"You could look at it and say that's not 'progressive' of them. But in a way it very much is, and it's in line with the anti-carceral mission that a lot of public defender offices have," added Primus, who runs a public defender training institute.
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Vigorous defenses of the law have been made in briefs by some prosecutors like Sorrells as well as former state chief justices including two appointed by Republican Texas governors.

"All I'm saying in filing this is, 'Look, don't take this out of my toolbox,'" Sorrells said. "This is a great tool that we can use to keep people in our community safe against violent offenders."

Reporting by Andrew Chung in New York; Editing by Will Dunham

https://www.reuters.com/legal/guns-...tections-collide-us-supreme-court-2023-11-06/
 
I agree with the ruling. If someone is charged with domestic violence go ahead and take their gun away while they await trial. But a simple accusation and restraining order doesn't meet the burden of proof necessary to deny someone their rights.
 
Histories of DV are prevalent in the vast majority mass shooter incidents in the US. But this issue is going to be predicated upon the typical male insecurity that often plagues rape discussions..."what if there's a false accusation?" Because people can't stand the idea that their fun might be infringed upon by their behavior. I dont think anyone eith a restraining order that a judge saw fit to grant should be running around with guns.

Think of Cops who beat their wives. Yes, take away their guns.
 
I agree with the ruling. If someone is charged with domestic violence go ahead and take their gun away while they await trial. But a simple accusation and restraining order doesn't meet the burden of proof necessary to deny someone their rights.

This I have no problem with removing gun from anyone charged with DV. But not just because some ex says so.
 
The wife should simply carry her own firearm.

Also nothing stops a bad husband with a gun like a good husband with a gun....sounds like we need more polyamory.

Frankly women who don't open carry are inviting romantic attention from potential attackers who will see her as a soft target.

Every marriage should look like this:
mr-and-mrs-smith-brad-pitt.gif


Also, I don't have a fully formed opinion on the merits of this situation so jokes are all you get.
 
Histories of DV are prevalent in the vast majority mass shooter incidents in the US. But this issue is going to be predicated upon the typical male insecurity that often plagues rape discussions..."what if there's a false accusation?" Because people can't stand the idea that their fun might be infringed upon by their behavior. I dont think anyone eith a restraining order that a judge saw fit to grant should be running around with guns.

Think of Cops who beat their wives. Yes, take away their guns.

Also, take away their jobs.

If they beat their wives they're utter filth and have no place occupying any position of authority in society.

People like that can maintain sewers.
 
I agree with the ruling. If someone is charged with domestic violence go ahead and take their gun away while they await trial. But a simple accusation and restraining order doesn't meet the burden of proof necessary to deny someone their rights.

If you go with that route it'd make sense to at least ensure the court system can handle the trial quickly. If you take away somebody's constitutional rights for a few weeks a lot more people would be fine with it than if the person had to wait 2 years.
 
Considering the filing rate for DV I’ve seen is literally less than 5% for my local DA, I’m perfectly fine with people with DV restraining orders having their firearms taken away. You are arrested for DV you should be stripped of the guns till the charge is resolved/dismissed.

I’m pretty pro 2A overall but getting blasted by some asshat I arrested for DV multiple times who has a restraining order is pretty low on my 2A cares, same for felons having gun rights restored after serving their sentences.
 
The wife should simply carry her own firearm.

Also nothing stops a bad husband with a gun like a good husband with a gun....sounds like we need more polyamory.

Frankly women who don't open carry are inviting romantic attention from potential attackers who will see her as a soft target.

Every marriage should look like this:
mr-and-mrs-smith-brad-pitt.gif


Also, I don't have a fully formed opinion on the merits of this situation so jokes are all you get.

More women should carry. Especially if they have a restraining order on someone. It's not like those kinds of situations don't ever go from 0 to 60 in a moments notice.
 
Also, take away their jobs.

If they beat their wives they're utter filth and have no place occupying any position of authority in society.

People like that can maintain sewers.

- It's pretty hard to a bad cop to lose their jobs here. But thank god they can't have a syndicate.
 
Last edited:
Supreme Court looks poised to uphold ban on guns for accused domestic abusers
Several key conservative justices seemed unlikely to strike down a federal law that disarms people under domestic violence restraining orders.

By JOSH GERSTEIN

The Supreme Court appears likely to uphold a federal ban on alleged domestic abusers possessing firearms, as several conservative justices signaled reluctance Tuesday to adopt an extreme version of the court’s history-focused approach to gun-rights cases.

During a 90-minute oral argument, the justices expressed skepticism that the “history” and “tradition” of gun regulations at the time of the nation’s founding require that the modern statute on domestic violence be declared unconstitutional.

Justices Neil Gorsuch and Amy Coney Barrett — two conservatives who may provide key votes in the case — did not seem particularly troubled by the domestic-abuser restriction Congress adopted in 1994, even as they expressed concerns that some government efforts to deny guns to people deemed dangerous could run afoul of the Second Amendment or of due process rights.


Justice Brett Kavanaugh, another potentially pivotal vote, was fairly quiet during the argument, though he did raise the prospect that striking down the law could imperil portions of a federal background-check system.

“According to the government, under your argument, that system could no longer stop persons subject to those domestic violence protective orders from buying firearms,” Kavanaugh told the lawyer for Zackey Rahimi, a Texas man who was charged with violating the federal ban.

The case, U.S. v. Rahimi, tests how the Supreme Court will apply a new approach it announced last year for evaluating the constitutionality of gun restrictions.

That approach, adopted in a New York case on concealed-carry limits, requires courts to investigate whether analogous gun restrictions existed in early American history.

Matthew Wright, the federal public defender representing Rahimi, said the absence of early laws explicitly barring gun ownership from domestic abusers meant that the current ban cannot stand.

But domestic violence was not a well-recognized issue centuries ago, and Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar, who defended the ban, said the history-focused test should not be so rigid. She called the dispute an “easy” one for the justices to resolve.

“Congress may disarm those who are not law-abiding responsible citizens,” she said. “This is not a close case.”

Indeed, the Biden administration lawyer seemed so convinced that the government had the decision in the bag that she used her brief rebuttal time to urge the justices to go even further than the issue of domestic abusers and torpedo other rulings in which district courts have used history to strike down laws that ban possession of guns by convicted felons and the possession of firearms with obliterated serial numbers.

“Those are clearly untenable results. They are profoundly destabilizing, and Bruen doesn’t require them,” Prelogar insisted, referring to the New York case decided last year in an opinion by conservative Justice Clarence Thomas.

Wright told the justices that the procedures used in state courts to disarm people subject to domestic violence restraining orders are often perfunctory and unfair. Rahimi, he said, was deprived of his right to bear arms based on a judicial order issued that he agreed to after a hearing in which he did not have a lawyer and had limited opportunity to present evidence.

“They made a one-sided proceeding that is short, a complete proxy for a total denial of a fundamental and individual constitutional right,” Wright said.

However, while opposing the blanket federal ban on possession of weapons by people subject to domestic restraining orders, Wright conceded that in some circumstances a judge could take a weapon away from an individual as part of a state court proceeding.

That puzzled some justices.

“I’ll tell you the honest truth, Mr. Wright. I feel like you’re running away from your argument, because the implications of your argument are just so untenable,” Justice Elena Kagan said.

Barrett and Chief Justice John Roberts expressed some discomfort with the government’s contention that authorities should have the right to keep guns from people who are “not responsible.”

“Responsibility is a very broad concept,” Roberts said, asking if people speeding or yelling at a basketball game could be considered irresponsible and then banned from owning weapons. “I mean, not taking your recycling to the curb on Thursdays. … What seems like it’s irresponsible to some people might seem like not a big deal to others.”

“So, it’s not a synonym for virtue?” Barrett asked.

“No,” Prelogar said, adding that a lack of responsibility in this context meant dangerousness and encompassed people like minors and the mentally ill, whose possession of weapons would pose an unacceptable risk to others even if they weren’t taking actions that could or would be prosecuted criminally.

Prelogar said that in asking for the authority to keep guns from those who are “dangerous” or not “responsible” the government was simply asking the court to faithfully apply last year’s decision in Bruen, not to modify it.

“We have tracked the court’s own language here,” she said.

However, two of the liberal justices took more direct aim at Bruen, suggesting that its attempt to use history to assess modern gun restrictions was unwise because it led to contradictory rulings in lower courts and did not honestly acknowledge the history of stripping weapons from disfavored groups like slaves or those loyal to the British crown.

“There seems to be a fair bit of division and a fair bit of confusion [about] Bruen in the lower courts,” Kagan said.

Kagan also suggested the drive to find historical analogs had limits. “You know, 200 some years ago, the problem of domestic violence was conceived very differently,” she said. “People had different understandings with respect to pretty much every aspect of the problem. So, if you’re looking for a ban on domestic violence, it’s not going to be there.”

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson repeatedly raised the issue of bans on slaves owning guns and she accused both sides in the case of dismissing the relevance of those categorical bans.

“We’re not talking about the history and tradition of all the people, but some of the people,” she said. “I’m a little troubled by having a history and traditions test that also requires some sort of culling of the history so that only certain people’s history counts.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/07/supreme-court-guns-domestic-violence-argument-00125853
 
Histories of DV are prevalent in the vast majority mass shooter incidents in the US. But this issue is going to be predicated upon the typical male insecurity that often plagues rape discussions..."what if there's a false accusation?" Because people can't stand the idea that their fun might be infringed upon by their behavior. I dont think anyone eith a restraining order that a judge saw fit to grant should be running around with guns.

Think of Cops who beat their wives. Yes, take away their guns.
Restraining orders are incredibly easy to get but temporary confiscation, like 30 days, should be ok
 
More women should carry. Especially if they have a restraining order on someone. It's not like those kinds of situations don't ever go from 0 to 60 in a moments notice.

"According to Alexander, her estranged husband, Rico Gray, accused her of having an affair and questioned whether their 9-day-old baby was his. She says she locked herself in the bathroom until he broke through the door and shoved her to the floor. She says she tried to escape through the garage but the door wouldn't open. She retrieved a gun from a car, went back inside and says she fired a 'warning shot' after Gray said he would kill her — an account backed by one of his sons. No one was injured."

She was charged and sentenced to 20 years in prison.

There are actually a shocking number of women who get convicted for killing their rapists/abusers. First we need to fix that.
 
"According to Alexander, her estranged husband, Rico Gray, accused her of having an affair and questioned whether their 9-day-old baby was his. She says she locked herself in the bathroom until he broke through the door and shoved her to the floor. She says she tried to escape through the garage but the door wouldn't open. She retrieved a gun from a car, went back inside and says she fired a 'warning shot' after Gray said he would kill her — an account backed by one of his sons. No one was injured."

She was charged and sentenced to 20 years in prison.

There are actually a shocking number of women who get convicted for killing their rapists/abusers. First we need to fix that.

Well warning shots are illegal. Also we gotta deal with the system we have and if you are dead you won't get your day in court either way.
 
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