Guillotine Thread -- Details Details Details

[Fedorzilla]

Folks,

I looked at another thread here and people were saying that the guillotine is one of, if not the, most commonly sunk submissions at their schools. This has me thinking about the fact that I have hit very few over the course of my training history (over 4 years). I don't know if this is because I'm bigger guy and people are nervous about driving into me for fear of getting swept or because I'm not looking for it.

Point being, if there are some details on this (seemingly) simple submission, I'd really appreciate folks pointing them out here. I would assume there are plenty of tricks to pull this sub other than the transition from a failed hip-bump sweep, but I'm not aware of that many.

I'm hoping people will post videos, instructional videos, pictures, cats and dogs living together... total anarchy.

Seriously, though, thanks in advance

EDIT: Here are some of the videos people have mentioned

There are a few solid videos on youku linked below, but I haven't figured out how to embed them just yet (please tell me if you know how to do this)

Triangle and guillotine from mount(no gi) -

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I set it up in no gi from a seated guard like you would with a loop choke in the gi.

Always remember, it's the oblique muscle crunch that finishes the hold. The arms just lock it in.

 

[redaxe]

How much no-gi do you do? If you train mostly gi that could be the reason why you don't get a lot of opportunity to use the guillotine choke.

I think the guys in that other thread saying that the guillotine is the most common submission, are training mostly or all no-gi.

Yours Truly,
Captain Obvious

 

[Fedorzilla]

I'm going to add the videos people mention to the original post

 

[betamin]

The best begginer instructional I have seen is the one from marcelo garcia, the one where he shows the techniques in a blue mat, the thing that made it click for me was the fact that I wasn't putting my wrist/ end of the forearm in the throat, in that instructional that was very clear.

These two videos are my new favorite ones:

YouTube - Marcelo Garcia - New Game Jiu-Jitsu 4 [vol 5] The Guillotine

YouTube - Robson Moura - Super No Gi [Vol 6] The Guillotine Choke

 

[Fedorzilla]

How much no-gi do you do? If you train mostly gi that could be the reason why you don't get a lot of opportunity to use the guillotine choke.

I think the guys in that other thread saying that the guillotine is the most common submission, are training mostly or all no-gi.

Yours Truly,
Captain Obvious

I do mostly gi these days, but this is something that I've never hit much in no gi either and I consider myself a decent no-gi player. I guess it's simply that I don't get a lot of them and not a lot of guys in schools I've trained in actually get caught in them generally. Don't know the reason, but if it's a gap in knowledge, I'd like to know what it is.

 

[Deleted member 267581]

How much no-gi do you do? If you train mostly gi that could be the reason why you don't get a lot of opportunity to use the guillotine choke.

I think the guys in that other thread saying that the guillotine is the most common submission, are training mostly or all no-gi.

Yours Truly,
Captain Obvious

i guillotine people all the time in the gi......

 

[Deleted member 267581]

I do mostly gi these days, but this is something that I've never hit much in no gi either and I consider myself a decent no-gi player. I guess it's simply that I don't get a lot of them and not a lot of guys in schools I've trained in actually get caught in them generally. Don't know the reason, but if it's a gap in knowledge, I'd like to know what it is.

the problem is most people try to get their whole forearm under the neck, most decent people aren't going to let you

i just try to cup the chin first.

 

[betamin]

IMO the best way to get the guillotine (and I think any other move) is to have a plan where after a sequence of movements the opponent is gonna end up in a spot where he doesn't see the guillotine coming, for example in the marcelo garcia video up there, the guy underneath reacts to the opportunity of escaping side control in a predictable way, from there you already should be alert and ready to wrap the arm around the neck.

My favorite setup is when the other guy is playing open guard, you go to the double leg-underhooks pass but instead of trying to pass you make him fold backwards (lifting him a bit) and ending up in a turtle position while facing you (obviously you should be already sprawling), from there since you planned ahead you should beat him to the punch and get the guillotine grip more easily. All of this is obviously not high level but it has worked for me personally.

 

[betamin]

the problem is most people try to get their whole forearm under the neck, most decent people aren't going to let you

i just try to cup the chin first.

Exactly, but if you look at marcelo at adcc 2009 the guy gets the guillotine in transitions, my guess is that he anticipated the way the opponent is going to move.

 

[dataws6]

IMO its just so easy to defend. Its been a long time since I have tapped to one.

 

[betamin]

Yeah I bet Kron hadn't tapped to one in a while either...

 

[Deleted member 267581]

IMO its just so easy to defend. Its been a long time since I have tapped to one.

The old style of the guillotine is very easy to defend. The trying to separate his head from his body gullotine.


The oblique crunch gullotine is very difficult to defend against.

 

[Drew Foster]

Exactly, but if you look at marcelo at adcc 2009 the guy gets the guillotine in transitions, my guess is that he anticipated the way the opponent is going to move.

That's exactly how Marcelo does it. He got 2 at ADCC 2007 and 3 at 2009. Also, once he gets the head he'll finish from wherever. Side control, mount, half guard, whever you escape to he's going to follow you and adjust the pressure accordingly. Dare I say I might enjoy seeing Marcelo Guillotine guys instead of getting them in the RNC. Amazing......

IWANNANBEADORED has it right. The Guillotine has come along way, and the crunching/Marcelo Guillotine is very powerful, hard to defend against, and is definately not a begginer sub.

 

[Qtip inspector]

Using the ten finger grip and the reverse ten finger grip will make your success rate go way up

 

[Deleted member 267581]

That's exactly how Marcelo does it. He got 2 at ADCC 2007 and 3 at 2009. Also, once he gets the head he'll finish from wherever. Side control, mount, half guard, whever you escape to he's going to follow you and adjust the pressure accordingly. Dare I say I might enjoy seeing Marcelo Guillotine guys instead of getting them in the RNC. Amazing......

IWANNANBEADORED has it right. The Guillotine has come along way, and the crunching/Marcelo Guillotine is very powerful, hard to defend against, and is definately not a begginer sub.

renzos guys are masters at that submission too. arm in arm out doesn't matter

 

[redaxe]

i guillotine people all the time in the gi......

In addition to "cup the chin," do you have any tips for how to set up a guillotine effectively in the gi?

I find that going for it off a failed hip bump sweep is pretty low percentage, and I don't get double legged often enough to practice using it as a counter to that. Most of the time in situations where I think I could use a guillotine in no-gi I'd just use a loop choke in gi instead.

I guess that Marcelo guillotine from side control looks like it could work in gi. How do you usually get your guillotines with the gi on though?

 

[Drew Foster]

In addition to "cup the chin," do you have any tips for how to set up a guillotine effectively in the gi?

I find that going for it off a failed hip bump sweep is pretty low percentage, and I don't get double legged often enough to practice using it as a counter to that. Most of the time in situations where I think I could use a guillotine in no-gi I'd just use a loop choke in gi instead.

I guess that Marcelo guillotine from side control looks like it could work in gi. How do you usually get your guillotines with the gi on though?

Guillotines in the gi are hard man. Maybe some people are god at them, but they aren't my specialty. If you can get the Marcelo side control Guillotine with a gi n, they will go out quicker due to the extra fabric.

Then again, sometimes you can get Guillotines and RNCs with a gi on because people assume that you aren't gonna go for them.

 

[Deleted member 267581]

Guillotines in the gi are hard man. Maybe some people are god at them, but they aren't my specialty. If you can get the Marcelo side control Guillotine with a gi n, they will go out quicker due to the extra fabric.

Then again, sometimes you can get Guillotines and RNCs with a gi on because people assume that you aren't gonna go for them.

Rnc's are tough in the gi. very tough.

I remember watching that video with eddie bravo talking about marcelo's guillotines, and it made me realize that eddie views bjj in the wrong sense.

He thinks that marcelos guilotine and rnc's are effective because of how strong he can squeeze. In reality its just good body mechanics not strength.

 

[betamin]

Rnc's are tough in the gi. very tough.

I remember watching that video with eddie bravo talking about marcelo's guillotines, and it made me realize that eddie views bjj in the wrong sense.

He thinks that marcelos guilotine and rnc's are effective because of how strong he can squeeze. In reality its just good body mechanics not strength.

Its true, Marcelo has the best body type to sink guillotines and rnc, (short arms) plus the best technique, speed, and squeeze, his setups are the thing that separates him from most, the mayority of grapplers I see try to control the opponent from the top and 'crush' them into positions, Marcelo just lets them free and reacts accordingly.