Guillotine Thread -- Details Details Details

Its true, Marcelo has the best body type to sink guillotines and rnc, (short arms) plus the best technique, speed, and squeeze, his setups are the thing that separates him from most, the mayority of grapplers I see try to control the opponent from the top and 'crush' them into positions, Marcelo just lets them free and reacts accordingly.


he has definitely adapted his bjj to his body type, but my point was that its not the "squeeze" that eddie famously talks about, its the body position and mechanics.


Roger gracie plays that pressure type of game, and he is probably the best of all time right up there with rickson
 
he has definitely adapted his bjj to his body type, but my point was that its not the "squeeze" that eddie famously talks about, its the body position and mechanics.


Roger gracie plays that pressure type of game, and he is probably the best of all time right up there with rickson

This is very true and important. However, a strong squeeze is another tool in your choking arsenal. It gives the guy less time to defend, which is always a good thing.
 
sticky plz, guillotines are sick and i want to incorporate them into my game.. i just always forget lol.
 
Can we have a guillotine defense instructional

What are the best ways to escape and prevent your head from getting caught, specifically when double legging
 
I think it's better when you slide the arm all the way up rather than put the hand on the shoulder, which looks easier to escape. The variation I'm talking about is very popular, like with the RNC grip.

I was thinking a lot about this setup (the guillotine with the RNC grip), it seems a lot more deep and difficult to escape than the "basic" one where you grip your hands or your hand with your wrist. Any tips on it? I rarely train nogi and with the gi it's difficult, as stated before, to finish guillotines, so I can't try that much myself, but I would like to know if there's some particular way to set it up.
 
I think it's better when you slide the arm all the way up rather than put the hand on the shoulder, which looks easier to escape. The variation I'm talking about is very popular, like with the RNC grip.

Any tutorials on this variation with good details, I've used it once in a while, but am doing something wrong because either the person doesn't tap or says its more crank then choke.
What are your thoughts on the position when attempting that variation.

Here is another demo of the hand on shoulder version. When my instructor demo's it on me, i tap @ least twice as fast compared to when he does a traditional guillotine.
YouTube - Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: figure 4 choke and its pretenders
 
Fantastic thread.

I do think that the guillotine is a very underated submission. People tend to miss it so much we all start thinking it's easy to escape, but in fact they just do it the wrong way. Once it's done right, you don't have much time to try to escape...

The last Khalidov Sakurai fight was pretty interesting in that respect :

YouTube - Mamed Khalidov vs Ryuta Sakuraj KSW 13 cz.2

YouTube - Mamed Khalidov vs Ryuta Sakuraj KSW 13 cz.3

Nothing but failed guillotine attempts...

sorry man, these vids aren't there anymore
 
Rnc's are tough in the gi. very tough.

I remember watching that video with eddie bravo talking about marcelo's guillotines, and it made me realize that eddie views bjj in the wrong sense.

He thinks that marcelos guilotine and rnc's are effective because of how strong he can squeeze. In reality its just good body mechanics not strength.

I agree, but there is truth to Eddie's view on the squeeze being different for different chokes and that a good RNC doesn't mean you'll have a Good Darce/Brabo, etc. I know people that have been in Marcelo's North/Souths/Guillotines/RNCs and they have all said they wanted to wait out the chokes to feel the pressure and they all said they either felt their neck bones popping, or they felt like their head was going to explode.
 
I agree, but there is truth to Eddie's view on the squeeze being different for different chokes and that a good RNC doesn't mean you'll have a Good Darce/Brabo, etc. I know people that have been in Marcelo's North/Souths/Guillotines/RNCs and they have all said they wanted to wait out the chokes to feel the pressure and they all said they either felt their neck bones popping, or they felt like their head was going to explode.

I'll second this. His amazing technique is a huge part of it, but Marcelo is no weakling and his chokes are TIGHT. And the squeeze is something that takes work to develop. It's not simply a matter of strength, but the ability to apply that strength continuously without ever relaxing or lowering the pressure. And when you combine that with incredible technique, that's how you get guys like Marcleo, Roger, etc. who practically take your head off with their chokes.
 
Had to add this jewel to the thread... would put into the OP as well but it's too long

First of all, Marcelo doesn't usually finish it like that anymore. He finishes it like this:


I did a write up on mginaction on why his Guillotine is the best out there, and he/they seemed to agree.

"There are tons of videos on here that will help you to actually apply the choke. As far as the extra details, they might be different from person-to-person.

First off, I believe the hip drop/elbow lift/leg over the shoulder/side crunch/Marcelo Guillotine is absolutely the best variation of the choke in existence. While the Darce/Brabo and the RNC have always been my best and favorite chokes, I'm finding myself currently catching more people with this choke, from more positions, than either of the other chokes.

As for the blood choke question: You're squeezing the neck very tight, but the elbow flare and lift pulls the forearm right up into the trachea. It cuts off the blood, and I have seen one MMA fighter go to sleep from it, but the primary action for this Guillotine is attacking the windpipe. Matt Arroyo showed the choke and had a student puke on him. Most people tap immediately from the pressure on the throat. There's really no time to think or ride out the choke once it's on. For someone to be able to even stand the pain for 3-6 seconds to even go to sleep would be a great feet.

The elbow lift accomplishes a few things. It prevents the opponent from bulldozing into you to relieve the pressure. That works with the old-school full guard Guillotine, which I haven't caught anyone with in forever, and I do think it will be phased out as time passes. The elbow lift can also be used to help keep someone on all fours if you are on your knees setting up the choke. Leo Vieira did this beautifully against Ryan Hall at ADCC 2009. Ryan was on his knees in the front headlock, and Leo was on his knees. He lifted the elbow up and over Ryan's back so Ryan couldn't posture up. Then Leo threw the leg over the shoulder and the tap came almost immediately.

The elbow lift also makes it so that the choke can be finished anywhere. In a full guard Guillotine, if your opponent jumps his body to your left side, and you have his head under your right arm, you have lost the choke. With the elbow flared up, they are typically completely on the choking side of your body (let's pretend the right side again). If they do manage to jump over you before you can throw your left leg over their back/shoulder, they will still be in the choke as they land. The elbow lift allows you to post your forehead on the mat when finishing from the mount, giving you more stability.

A lot of people don't know what to do with the bottom leg. Most people know the top leg goes over and in front of the shoulder, on the same side as the lifting elbow. Sometimes you can't get it in front of the shoulder and you have the settle for just getting it on the back. The choke should still work. The leg is just to further help them from jumping and/or pressing in to alleviate pressure. I like to take the bottom leg, and shoot the knee in between out bodies, and place the shin against their hip/waistline, with the top of my right foot up against their right hip. This also helps keep them in place. Marcelo does this a lot. The first time I saw it done was against George Sotiropolous at ADCC 2007. I'm sure there's other stuff you can do with the bottom leg, but I try to stick with this.

Those are some of the details about the workings of the choke that make it so special. Literally all you have to do is get control of their head, and then get to the front headlock. This Guillotine can be finished from so many positions it's scary. If you watch the vids of Marcelo and Ryan Hall rolling, Marcelo finishes several times with Marcelo past his body on the typical "safe" side to be in a Guillotine choke.

As setups are concerned, this site is FILLED with them.

ALSO, don't forget the connection between the North/South choke and the Guillotine. They have very separate mechanics and details, but they both have 2 things in common. They both involve heaving the neck getting choked by one arm with one supporting/aiding arm, and they both have a lot of intertwined/similar setups. Many times if someone escapes the N/S choke you have a Guillotine and vice-verse. I believe the Guillotine is technically more versatile, because it can be hit from more positions, but it is very smart to become well versed in the North/South choke if you are really interested in this type of Guillotine. In many ways they go together.

Hope that helped some. Some of your questions I'm not qualified/can't answer/don't know the answer to."
 
Its true, Marcelo has the best body type to sink guillotines and rnc, (short arms) plus the best technique, speed, and squeeze, his setups are the thing that separates him from most, the mayority of grapplers I see try to control the opponent from the top and 'crush' them into positions, Marcelo just lets them free and reacts accordingly.

That's so true. I try to play like that, but unfortunately it requires you being very good...grinding is so much simpler, though ultimately probably not as effective.

Hitting stuff in transitions is the bomb.
 
I agree, but there is truth to Eddie's view on the squeeze being different for different chokes and that a good RNC doesn't mean you'll have a Good Darce/Brabo, etc. I know people that have been in Marcelo's North/Souths/Guillotines/RNCs and they have all said they wanted to wait out the chokes to feel the pressure and they all said they either felt their neck bones popping, or they felt like their head was going to explode.


When I was in NYC a few months ago, I purposely had Marcelo put me in his N/S choke after class, just to feel it.

It felt like the most perfect choke ever- it didnt really have too much pain, just very clean, and it just felt like my world was getting dimmer and dimmer.

I thought for a second to just pass out (I've never had this happen to me, as I will tap fast), but I didnt want to lose my bladder on the mat (heard that can happen).
 
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