Grinding down your opponent

Aesopian said:
Using your elbow to dig their thighs and open closed guard is gotarded.
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Actually I have broken many guards by doing this.
 
Aesopian said:
That doesn't change the gotardation.
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maybe I have not spent enough time in this forum, can someone tell me what "gotard/gotardation" is?
 
b0b said:
Traditional BJJ sidemount is putting all of your weight on your knees and keeping your butt low. This puts no pressure on the opponent.

The wrestling way puts all of your weight on thier chest and drives the air out of them.
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I thought the traditional BJJ sidemount was to pressure the opponent by trapping their near arm with hip pressure. Sort of like a higher version of a wrestling pin. But anywoo...

I try to use a hybrid sidemount. I keep the low knee close to avoid the opponent from getting half-guard, but I also straighten the high leg (close to his head) and pressure on their hips.

Of course, sometimes I'll change any of these techniques depending on how strong, skilled, or conditioned my opponent is. Nothing is set in stone!
 
Over the years I've used different versions of sidemount. Recently I've been working a version with the top leg sprawled and the bottom knee in and below their butt. A black belt that trains with us periodically does this very well and the sensation of being clamped in place (no-gi) has lead me to work on it.
 
Aesopian said:
That doesn't change the gotardation.
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Yeh what do you mean by this? Not to say pain is the game in BJJ but discomfort & people going 'ouch' is part of the art. I don't treat grappling as vale tudo but at the same time I understand I'm attending a class where my body will be pushed to levels I don't usually go in outside of training, one being 'pain'.

I am glad that I train with guys who cross face, crank my neck, train hard & push me. I haven't competed but guys I train with aswell as myself train pretty damn hard ( which I guess you could consider competition level) whilst taking care of our fellow grapplers.

It is just my opinion but I'm glad that I have a set of skilled guys that have no need for 'dirty' tricks aswell as those who do at my gym. In MMA, grappling competitions & on the street (God forbid I need to fight) I won't have people who care if they have applied a beautifully technical choke.

I just get the feeling from your posts Aeso that you consider 'sloppy' jiu jitsu as being not important. I'm not into internet arguments I am just stressing my point & wondered why you see techniques such as 'elbow grinding' as retarded when they are just part of BJJ.

As a note, I roll 'sloppy/dirty' against guys who roll the same as me who have an unvoiced agreement about it. My instructor has no need as he has beautiful technique similarly to the blues & purples. New guys I roll cleanly as I have no intention to hurt a new guy or submit him as fast I can to satisfy my ego.
 
b0b said:
Traditional BJJ sidemount is putting all of your weight on your knees and keeping your butt low. This puts no pressure on the opponent.

The wrestling way puts all of your weight on thier chest and drives the air out of them.
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The wrestling way you end up getting put back in halfguard or guard. I would never try that against a blue belt and above.
 
I only use it as a transition move. Other than that it's dumb to just sit there because you are just sitting there causing discomfort and it's hard to get a submssion against anyone decent from there.
 
Gsoares2 said:
using your elbow to dig in the thigh has a disadvantage.. Guys will just hold your hand and climb.. leaving you with one arm stuck inside pending an armbar... pull it out and now your pending a triangle. Thats why it is better to use "slower, less efficient way of using your hand and pushing" Thats just my opinion though.
I catch guys constantly that use the elbows to open me up. I just hold a wrist and shove their elbow towards my crotch.. then climb.. then they have to deal with an onslaught of attacks. armbars, triangles, more armbars, and omoplatta.


Have to ask your self if you want to be the dirty skeez bag guy willing to do anything to win, or if you want to be the techincal guru that does everything clean and perfect.
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They can't hold your hand if you actually know what you're doing.

The 'sirty sleezebag way' being the part that's allowed in competitions? I'll do that one please.
 
I've decided to not bother trying to get people to realize that elbow grinding is gotarded. It'll make competition that much easier.
 
you can use elbow grinding with other techniques, making it that much more effective.
 
Soid said:
The wrestling way you end up getting put back in halfguard or guard. I would never try that against a blue belt and above.
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Not if you practice. You can hip in, and stop their movement. You can also move with them. It is really effective is practiced.
 
Grinding down your opponent is fine.

Grinding down your training partners is gotarded. You're masking your inability to set up a move without using pain as a compulsion. Guess what - when you're in a situation where adrenaline is raging (i.e. serious comp or a fight) no one's going to fucking open their guard because of a little elbow grinding.

Work the delivery system in training and tack the pain crap on when you need to bring it out. Depending on your opponents pain threshold for your techniques to work is a really dumb idea.
 
Are you guys refering to posturing, hands on biceps and quickly pushing on there thighs with your elbows to open guard allowing the knee to come in or get both arms under and out or rubbing the thighs like trying to start a fire. It sounds like your arguing about different things.
 
Kawlinz said:
They can't hold your hand if you actually know what you're doing.

The 'sirty sleezebag way' being the part that's allowed in competitions? I'll do that one please.
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If your pushing on my thigh with your elbow.. im going to be able to touch it.
Or ill grab the sleeve with both hands rip it across lateraly and climb...

either way it is a bad pass.. For nogi its much better but still i dont have much of a problem with it.
 
Gsoares: I do only no-gi... so maybe there's a discrepency... anyways, when I do the elbow grind in the thigh (sciatic nerve, or however it's spelled), I keep my hand close to my body, and the other hand is generally on the person's stomach, with the arm close to my body so that there aren't any holes. The only thing you can really grab is my elbow, but I can just hold that tight to me as well. I'm not saying it's invincible, I was just mentioning to someone that it's the same basic idea as a hand on the knee, but it works better.

Aardvark said:
no one's going to fucking open their guard because of a little elbow grinding.
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How can you be calling it "a little elbow grinding" (more accurately, elbow pressing). If you hit the right spot (and three different JJ instructors have taught this to break the guard) it's not just a little pain, it's a ton. One of the instructors tried to keep his guard closed while the class opened it this way... you *CAN NOT* keep it closed.
 
no one is saying grinding the elbow doesnt work at least some of the time, there are just much more effective ways of opening the guard. this was discussed ad nauseum in the thread about opening the guard.
 
Yeah I think they are talking about when someone just sticks there elbow directly in the crevice of the knee and pushes down like a moron. Not like when you have your whole forearm on the thigh and are pushing down with the elbow in the little crevice.
 
Kawlinz said:
How can you be calling it "a little elbow grinding" (more accurately, elbow pressing). If you hit the right spot (and three different JJ instructors have taught this to break the guard) it's not just a little pain, it's a ton. One of the instructors tried to keep his guard closed while the class opened it this way... you *CAN NOT* keep it closed.
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I'm not saying you can't open a guard by inflicting pain. I'm saying that being dependant on someones pain threshold for something as basic as passing the guard is retarded. There's all sorts of stuff I'll give up on in the academy that I'd shrug off in either a competition or a fight. Get the leverage and biomechanics right and then dick around with all the candyass pain compulsions.
 
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