- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 2,411
- Reaction score
- 0
Agree. I don't think Bert Sugar (who's seen more and forgotten more than everyone at ESPN combined) had Ali even in the top 5 if I recall. Flame me for saying this, but I think that the fact that Ali was such an iconic figure at such a turbulent time in American history garners him more fanfare than maybe he deserves. He did beat some of the greatest: Patterson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier etc... but those guys have great wins as well and weren't in the limelight the way Ali was. I think Ali created America's obsession with the personality and the human being behind all the bright lights and professional accomplishments. Take that for what it's worth, but on a list of the greatest fighters it shouldn't be more than an afterthought.
Kansas
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/2ah8emu.gif">
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2006
- Messages
- 11,024
- Reaction score
- 0
He is at once the most important fighter and the most overrated fighter of the last half-century.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,000
- Reaction score
- 1
I like Bert Sugar....but I don't put much weight into what he says......Bert is loyal to the fighters of his generation (as we all are) and he tends to repeat urban myths that never happened as facts.....For instance- The Willie Pep punchless round never happened. It's just a myth made up about Willie 20 years later, yet Bert tells the story over and over again ad-nauseam as though it is absolutely engraved in stone.
At times Bert needs a few bran muffins and a couple cups of coffee......because he is full of it.
Ali's true greatness (politics and social bullshit issues aside) lies in the fact that he rose to the occasion time and time again in situations where he was not supposed to win.....Liston was supposed to walk through Ali in one round.....Ali was supposed to be too old to make a comeback after his 3 year absence (he won 2 of his titles after his suspension)......Foreman was supposed to murder Ali.....and so on........Ali always rose to the occasion when his back was to the wall. Only the greatest fighters can do that time and again.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 2,411
- Reaction score
- 0
I agree about Sugar, but the lists people make are very subjective no matter who they are. I saw one where the top 5 read 1. Pacman, 2. Ali, 3. Marciano, 4. Tyson, 5. JCC.
WTF?? I'll take Sugar's word over that mess any day. I think there's also the time factor involved. If you take a look at his list in 25yrs, you won't believe how low B-Hop is, same with RJJ. I don't like how he did Holmes either, but I digress.
So in no way am I trying to minimize Ali's accomplishments. The man doing what he did IN the ring after going through what he went through OUT of it absolutely deserves praise. A definite top 3 GOAT during the golden era of the HW's, but top spot P4P of all time?? I just can't see it.
webeballin
Green Belt
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2008
- Messages
- 1,305
- Reaction score
- 0
iF you look at their reseme and then compare it to ali's it's not really close ali Beat the Best heavyweights in the 60's and 70's lost three years oF his prime and fought on three years well past his prime where he was still very succesful
I would argue that that golden era of the heavyweight's was one of the greatest and most competitive eras in Boxing history
fought the greatest punchers in Boxing history and wasnt never knocked out was given virtually no chance against liston and foreman two of the most imposing fighters in Boxing history and out fought Both of them
lets Be honest if ali carried himself in joe louis style then ali would have Been regarded far higher than he is By the purists
Being a knock out artist helps greatly or a heavyweight of which ali wasnt
ali talked alot of shit But he Backed up more than any other who has tried to imitate his shit talking
personal views are included way too often in such rankings
Hitmanx 6.0
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2006
- Messages
- 608
- Reaction score
- 0
Sugar Ray Robinson
He was too small to beat those guys you listed..every one of them was 220 plus in their primes while Rock usually weighed in at 200lbs or less..
Foreman was the biggest of the guys you listed and he ran around 240lbs during his prime. Scary thought is that he was considered a Huge heavyweight, thus the nickname "Big" George Foreman and he would be small in todays HW world with the Klitchkos and Valuev ( even though he sucks) running well over 250lbs.
Rocky Marciano was great in his era but lets not get insane here, most of the guys you named would have knocked him out.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2007
- Messages
- 4,991
- Reaction score
- 1
This is not true.
Marciano was between 184 and 187 lbs at his best, no 200 lbs for the Rock.
George Foreman was no 240 lbs in his prime neither; the 6'4" Foreman was 217 pounds at his best, certainly no more than 224 to be effective.
I don't see anyone in the current heavyweight class that cold beat a prime George Foreman.
Marciano ? I'd give him a great chance of beating current heavyweights, but he might need 15 rds to do it, and we're in the era of 12 rounders.
The Rock was an iron man, perhaps the best conditioned there's ever been.
Crude but effective. A pressure fighter with a ton more stamina than ANY current heavyweight, he had a heavyweight punch, 1 punch KO power that he carried into rds 13, 14, 15, and a chin of granite, and uncompromising desire to win the fight.
The liabilities are he was prone to cuts and they stop fights for cuts nowadays whereas in the Rock's day, they'd let the fight go. Cuts had to be horrific for them to stop the fight.
He might also need 15 rds instead of 12.
Finally, he'd be considered a small Cruiserweight nowadays.
With day-before-weigh-ins nowadays, guys the size of Marciano fight at 175 lbs Light-Heavyweights.
Doesn't matter. I'd give 5'10" 185 lb Marciano the edge over any current Heavyweight.
Let's not forget how well a fat, old, past-his-prime 160 pounder named James Toney did against these superior modern 250 lb heavyweights, and also the 6 ' Chris Byrd too (blown up 169 pounder)...and Roy Jones....and blown-up 188 lb Evander Holyfield...and 215 lb David Haye who's going to lay out some behemoths during the next 2 years or so.
EDIT: Marciano vs the Greats of boxing history makes for some compelling stylistic matchups.
Marciano could beat some of them, but he'd be stopped or outpointed by a few of them too.
.
MMAGuruLV***
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,816
- Reaction score
- 0
But against who? All those three fighters have HALF the notable fighters in the wins column that Ali did. There's a reason hes so popular. He didn't fight cans, he fought LEGENDS, and owned them. Ali IS the greatest. People just don't like to think its so easy to point out the best, just by picking the popular fighter.
MMA example, when you think of the most talented fighters in 185lb history, its easy to put the spyder at the top of that list, because he fought at a time of legends, and defeated them, Franklin is a legendary fighter and Silva OWNED him, he owned everybody.
Thus, he is a legend, and the best fighter at that weightclass, because he fought legendary opposition, and he defeated it to prove his worth.
This is why I have NO respect for mayweather, he wants to be acknowledged as the greatest, but he didn't fight at a time where there were legends to fight against, and still turned down more than 5 fights against top opposition in his era. So he didn't want to fight the best of his era, which were not legendary opponents, yet he still wants to be put at the top with the likes of Ali, Louis, Frazier and the real Sugar Ray(Leonard, Not Robinson). This makes no sense. I can pound the snot out of my little sister 3 times a day for a year, and have over 900 wins, but does that make me a legend simply based on the fact that I have alot of W's, or that I was never defeated? It was my little sister! That's not noteworthy!
Willie Pep never fought a single opponent at the level of an Ali, of a Frazier, or even a Tyson. He DOES NOT IN ANY WAY deserve to be in the GOAT list, PERIOD. Not bashing, good boxer, just nowhere near the top of all time.
I think people believe they sound educated when they mention less popular names in a list of tops so people will say "wow I don't even know who that is, he must know way more than me!" But I have a library of over 8,000 fights including the entire careers of Tyson, Ali, Marciano, RJJ, Sugar ray Leonard, and more than 50 Robinson fights, plus I have copies of Pep/Angott or whatever his name was, Pep/Jackie Wilson 1(who was his most notable win), and all three of his fights against Sandy Saddler. And Ive seen more. Not on the top 5 GOAT list, by any means, unless the list is purely based on total wins.
Sorry so long, just had alot to get out. Again, I don't mean to bash anybody, this is just my opinion. Top 5? I dunno, but the top two are Ali, and Leonard.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,000
- Reaction score
- 1
MMA Guru.......You're preaching to the choir about Ali. I grew up watching him pull rabbits out of a hat and I do believe that he is the greatest HW champ who ever lived.....by a very long shot.
But you can't compare fighters from the 30's and the 40's to someone of Ali's stature without some perspective.....There was no television in 1940 or 1945. Fighters never received the hype or buildup that the Ali's and Frazier's got. A fighter had to fight 60-80 times before they even got close to a title shot.....and for purses much smaller than what Ali got. As much as I like Ali -I'm not oblivious to the fact that a large part of the Ali mystique was media generated and molded. Ali came along at the right time in history and peaked when the division was chock full of talent.....Ali took full advantage of that fact..... Put Ali back into the 40's or 50's and he would still be great.....but his greatness would not have the impact it did during 1964-Civil Rights era America.
Not sure what you mean by notable wins for"those three fighters".....Henry Armstrong fought during the greatest convergence of talent in boxing history and fought men such as: Lou Ambers, Barney Ross, Baby Arizmendi, Fritzie Zivic, Chalky Wright, Ceferino Garcia, Petey Sarron, Mike Belloise, Lew Jenkins, Sammy Angott (or whatever his name was), Beau Jack, Tippy Larkin, Sugar Ray Robinson etc. etc...........
Willie Pep fought:Sandy Saddler (4 times-not 3), Chalky Wright, Paddy DeMarco, Manuel Ortiz, Sammy Angott, Charley Riley, Hogan "Kid" Bassey, etc. etc....Kid Wilson is not his most notable fight/victory......Peps 2nd fight with Saddler was the cherry on top of his fight career cake.
And of course.....Sugar Ray fought them all........
Between the 3 of them they have probably fought about 35-40 Hall of Famers......multiple times over.
Pep,Robinson and Armstrong fought in 65 world title fights combined.....take any other 3 fighters and add them together.....see if it comes close to 65 title fights.
If you have a collection of 8,000 fight films.....then you may have the 2nd or 3rd largest collection in the world.....ESPN has a collection of 16,000 films and it is considered the largest collection extent.
You might do well to watch some of those films........especially the pre-television fights.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 2,411
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm not saying Ali wasn't the greatest HW ever. It would be a good discussion but I wouldn't argue against that. But this is a P4P discussion and there are things that the HW's lack traditionally that their power can't compensate for. Ali had more speed and better footwork than many of them, but when speaking about HW's that isn't saying much.
I agree that personal views are included too much in this type of debate, that's why I think Ali gets as much praise as he does. He was a personal hero to 1000x as many people as he was a boxing textbook to. I mean people know about his personal life and his rebellious nature and they know that he was a fighter, but what do they know about his fundamentals?? I think it also helped a lot that he'd yell out "I'm the greatest" every chance he could get.
This was an era where not only was the civil rights movement in full swing, but when sports on TV was gaining real momentum for the very first time. Ali personified all of that and took it into the living room of just about every home in the country. This was when there were only 4 channels to pick from and 1 of them had the Ali fight and the other 3 would cover it on the news.
I think that there was just as much competition in terms of fundamentals and natural talent during the 4 kings era.
Kid McCoy
Black Belt
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,359
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm not picking on you, honest. I picked your post at random.
Just so nobody gets confused about Pep fighting nobodies,
Sandy Saddler, Chalky Wright, Sammy Angott, Manuel Ortiz are all in the Hall of Fame.
Hogan 'Kid' Bassey and Ray Famechon will likely end up there, and Sal Bartolo, Phil Terranova, Eddie Compo, Charley Riley, Paddy DeMarco, Pappy Gault and Corky Gonzales were all great fighters as well and represent the tip of the iceberg in terms of the talent Pep fought.
Lestor Pearson, George Marshall, Leon Jouhaux, now those were some
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2005
- Messages
- 139,544
- Reaction score
- 43,205
Say Kid ( or anyone) , whats your take on Pep overshadowing Sadler historically?
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,000
- Reaction score
- 1
Saddler was fairly bitter about it (read-In This Corner, By Peter Heller).
Pep was still recovering from his plane crash when he and Sandy first mixed it up....I think folks see Pep as diminished somewhat physically which is why Saddler may have taken their series 3-1.
Pep put on a superb piece of boxing in their second fight in 1949. Bill Gallico said that Pep "fought a perfect fight".....The film I've seen of the fight is probably Pep at his very best......One last trip to the well before Father Time tapped him on the shoulder.
I don't have a problem with Sandy being overshadowed.....He caught Willie as Willie was heading for the exits.....Sandy was a dirty SOB that relied on alot of wrestling, clinching, shoulders and elbows to get the job done.....Even referees were intimidated by him and let him get away with his shit.
