Grappling Medieval Swordsman Style

[Kforcer]

I dont have an opinion on the matter, because it simply doesnt interests me.

Ive been in those dojos and have seen what they teach there.
It has nothing to do with ground fighting.
Its closer to aikido.

The whole "lineage research" is so flawed, its not even funny.
And Im baffled so many people buy into such a load of crap.

Even more resent researchers, like Drysdale, have failed to do the simple thing:
File a request for access to Kodokan archives, where EVERYTHING is kept.
Then get a translator and present raw information, without any bias.

Instead, people want to hear about mystical guys, practicing God knows what, God knows where and no official records to show.

I would call Tani, Uyenishi and Miyake "mystical guys"; they were 20th figures who practiced a pretty practical form of grappling. And since I love stuff like rolling entries into leglocks, I'm interested in a guy like Uyenishi, who demonstrated moves like that long before I was born. Seems only natural to me.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I would call Tani, Uyenishi and Miyake "mystical guys"; they were 20th figures who practiced a pretty practical form of grappling. And since I love stuff like rolling entries into leglocks, I'm interested in a guy like Uyenishi, who demonstrated moves like that long before I was born. Seems only natural to me.

Have you met them?
Have you seen their matches?
How can you possibly know with certainty what exactly were they doing in training?

 

[Kforcer]

Have you met them?
Have you seen their matches?
How can you possibly know with certainty what exactly were they doing in training?

We know from SK Uyenishi's famous instructional, for one thing, as well as the photos of others such as Tani. That's where you see him demonstrating a scissors takedown to Achilles lock. Then you have the many reports of their matches and the style practiced by their students. In the case of Uyenishi and Tani, they taught extensively in England and were the main instructors at the Bartitsu gym.

I should add that of course, there's a lot we don't know about them and probably a lot we can't know, which is part of why I find the subject interesting and why I try to fill in the gaps of my knowledge regarding them. What we do know is, to me, very compelling so I desire to learn more.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I should add that of course, there's a lot we don't know about them and probably a lot we can't know

And there you have it.

We simply dont.

And its time to stop speculating.

I have been in some countries for years and did specific training (like boxing, for example) on request.
So the people I did train, had no idea I was a grappler primarily.

Before jumping to wrong conclusions, one must consider several aspects:
- The context.
Why was certain person in a certain place and what was the objective?
Was he invited for specific reason and why did he focus on certain training?
Was he even aware of the way his teaching was presented to the public?

- The agenda.
Was he contracted by certain organisation with specific mission to promote specific agenda?

- The coverage.
Here is an example from the thread I linked above:
The "historian" made claims, based on information obtained via broken telephone style communication with my friends.

Japanese are very non-confrontational in their communication and avoid at all cost taking a hard stance on issues, not related to them.
So, the "historian" asked nuanced questions and got answers from Masa Yoshizawa (personal friend of mine, training partner and colleague for over 20 years), sounding like "it could be" or "it is possible, but I dont know", which in Japanese is a polite way to say "no and I dont care".

The "historian" then presented the answers as positive confirmation of his claims
Just a few weeks later we were having dinner with Masa and I asked him whats that all about.
He was furious, when he found how his answers were interpreted.

So, yeah, I dont care about "he said she said" type of information.
Especially when it comes to Japanese and Japanese language.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

So this video here shows the basics of what I would basically call HEMA grappling, grappling techniques based on the writings of Fiore.

Now it's interesting to see because I imagine knights (especially Italian knights) would have been trained in wrestling of the ancient styles, wrestling is by no means new.

And before you cast it off because of the overweightedness of the men in the video, Fiore was literally one of the best swordsman of the era, his principles are still very relevant in competition today.

I do imagine if he felt these grappling positions relevant enough to mention there must have been a reason, and that he didn't just discuss these positions haphazardly.

So any points of discussion from this?

It advises a very different stance than a standard grappling stance.

Iron gates is the main stance I was told to maintain, it advises keeping the hands down on one side of the body, with a bladed stance, with weight low.

I don't have any videos about this, but I could make some eventually.
The idea is basically to use a wide circular motion to redirect any attacks and grabs and counter attack or grab.

Anyways what do you think about this style, anything new in it you would consider using?

it is interesting i saw the tv show on the history channel where an mma fighter tried to beat people up in a suit of armor and he got beat. other than being interesting it isnt really practical or worth thousands of dollars

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Another example:

One of my friends, Mr. Oka, is national champion of Japan in several different styles: Sambo, Greco, Combat Wrestling (also the first HW world champ) and a few others.

He is currently known as Great O Khan in New Japan Pro Wrestling.
He lived and performed in England as a pro wrestler.

Almost nobody outside Japan knows he is a legit wrestler with national titles.

As a matter of fact, a lot of people dont even know he is Japanese (they think he is Chinese ).

So, the opinion of the local newspaper in England on Oka might be quite different from mine.

Do you get the point?

 

[Kforcer]

Another example:

One of my friends, Mr. Oka, is national champion of Japan in several different styles: Sambo, Greco, Combat Wrestling (also the first HW world champ) and a few others.

He is currently known as Great O Khan in New Japan Pro Wrestling.
He lived and performed in England as a pro wrestler.

Almost nobody outside Japan knows he is a legit wrestler with national titles.

As a matter of fact, a lot of people dont even know he is Japanese (they think he is Chinese ).

So, the opinion of the local newspaper in England on Oka might be quite different from mine.

Do you get the point?

Sure, I absolutely take your point, and you have to be cautious to leap to conclusions when looking at British sources, given the potential for misunderstandings based on language and culture, but I don't think that means that Tani, Uyenishi, Miyake and their peers aren't interesting or worthwhile objects of study. Or that studying figures from the past necessarily means neglecting the development of your skills in the present. Yuki Nakai has made an extensive study of S.K. Uyenishi, for example, but clearly, he didn't seem to do so to the expense of his skills in and knowledge of contemporary grappling.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions, in other words, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn about our grappling forbears.

 

[Kforcer]

I have been in some countries for years and did specific training (like boxing, for example) on request.
So the people I did train, had no idea I was a grappler primarily.

Before jumping to wrong conclusions, one must consider several aspects:
- The context.
Why was certain person in a certain place and what was the objective?
Was he invited for specific reason and why did he focus on certain training?
Was he even aware of the way his teaching was presented to the public?

- The agenda.
Was he contracted by certain organisation with specific mission to promote specific agenda?

Good points.

I wish I was still in touch with a couple of friends of mine, Yasutoshi Ishikawa and Yasuyuki Fujikura, who were very knowledgeable when it came to Japanese grappling, but after getting off of Facebook and not wanting to get back on, I don't have their contacts. I probably should have asked Yuki Nakai directly about S.K. Uyenishi as well, back when I was on Facebook, because that is where I found out about it (he posted about it on Facebook).

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Good points.

I wish I was still in touch with a couple of friends of mine, Yasutoshi Ishikawa and Yasuyuki Fujikura, who were very knowledgeable when it came to Japanese grappling, but after getting off of Facebook and not wanting to get back on, I don't have their contacts. I probably should have asked Yuki Nakai directly about S.K. Uyenishi as well, back when I was on Facebook, because that is where I found out about it (he posted about it on Facebook).

Yuki Nakai also claims he is Kosen Judo black belt
And he sells Kosen Judo DVDs, so again... Agenda.

 

[rmongler]

Yuki Nakai also claims he is Kosen Judo black belt
And he sells Kosen Judo DVDs, so again... Agenda.

There are angles in everything everyone does. No being within Being ever exists in wholly unmoved, uninterested, or unentangled position.

You, too, have agendas that are being served by you poo-poo'ing people researching martial arts history, in general or in these matters in particular.

Does this then imply that knowledge is impossible? No, what it means is that the real fallacy is thinking having objectives precludes knowledge in the first place; indeed, even, you could say that getting the latter depends on having the former.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

There are angles in everything everyone does. No being within Being ever exists in wholly unmoved, uninterested, or unentangled position.

You, too, have agendas that are being served by you poo-poo'ing people researching martial arts history, in general or in these matters in particular.

Does this then imply that knowledge is impossible? No, what it means is that the real fallacy is thinking having objectives precludes knowledge in the first place; indeed, even, you could say that getting the latter depends on having the former.

What is my agenda in refuting false claims?

As I said above, I dont have an opinion on the matter, because its simply not important to me.
BUT, the guy in question did the following:

He used my friend's name to falsify his statement and try to present it as a source.

From there, he tried to build a straw man argument.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

Yuki Nakai also claims he is Kosen Judo black belt
And he sells Kosen Judo DVDs, so again... Agenda.

what is kosen judo i know kosen judo in japan