Grappling Medieval Swordsman Style

[MarcoW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLZyxtlb3F0

So this video here shows the basics of what I would basically call HEMA grappling, grappling techniques based on the writings of Fiore.

Now it's interesting to see because I imagine knights (especially Italian knights) would have been trained in wrestling of the ancient styles, wrestling is by no means new.

And before you cast it off because of the overweightedness of the men in the video, Fiore was literally one of the best swordsman of the era, his principles are still very relevant in competition today.

I do imagine if he felt these grappling positions relevant enough to mention there must have been a reason, and that he didn't just discuss these positions haphazardly.

So any points of discussion from this?

It advises a very different stance than a standard grappling stance.

Iron gates is the main stance I was told to maintain, it advises keeping the hands down on one side of the body, with a bladed stance, with weight low.

I don't have any videos about this, but I could make some eventually.
The idea is basically to use a wide circular motion to redirect any attacks and grabs and counter attack or grab.

Anyways what do you think about this style, anything new in it you would consider using?

 

[green1]

I do find this type of stuff interesting, fenced all though college and dabbled in some historic stuff, then been doing judo, muay thai and bjj for years as an adult.

One weird thing is muay thai and jujitsu/judo all kind of evolved from armed combat into what we have now. Kinda cool

That said the video definitely had some aikido flavor, kind of not my style at this point

Not to say it "wrong" as a lot of the basic stances are being interpreted from woodcuts and I think a lot of it WAS stylized.

that said i feel like HEMA wrestling was probably a bit more rough and tumble and tricky then inferred at times

Its cool to see that because I have read about the "iron gates" recently in some random Miles Cameron books and that was not what I thought it was, my vague impression was its a move where you used your gauntlets combined with your blade (possibly a dagger) to lock down your opponents weapon and then arm-lock/throw the dude

Interesting because i honestly imagined ippon seoi nage with a sword haha

 

[Uchi Mata]

Anytime you're dealing with long weapons, especially really heavy ones like longswords, grappling plays a huge role as it's much faster in many cases to counter a missed blow or follow up on a counter with a throw or body strike (think shoulder blow) than to get your sword around to strike. In general I take historical stuff like this at more or less face value, if guys were writing manuals used by actual soldiers and duelists in life and death combat they're probably pretty quick to shed whatever doesn't work. In terms of stances, of course they'll be different than a normal grappling stance. Your primary weapon and the primary danger from your opponent is still the sword not grappling, so your stance will have to be designed to allow for defense against the sword and facilitate your own sword blows. Grappling would always be secondary to that.

 

[TheHereticJay]

If you want to know how to really wrestle with swords, take a look at Ringen Am Schwert. Here are a couple vids on what it details..




And most definitely look up Hans Talhoffer's work. Here is his work from 1459. http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Fight-Earnestly.pdf
You'll find grappling with and without weapons, and you'll notice a lot of common positions like gutwrenchs and whatnot in the unarmed section. And remember this is from the 1450s!

Reilly, and a bunch of other cats at the gym were talking about trying to start a grappling with swords dealio...but it never panned out because leather is expensive as balls.

 

[Chuckliddell24]

Interesting

 

[Julian Smith]

I’d imagine grappling was a huge part of a armored sword fight, considering slashing armor doesn’t really do much. Prob easier to trip them then stab them with a knife.

I just realized judo must of originated from a martial art that used no gi grips.... makes you wonder why they shun no gi so much then

 

[sb413197]

I just realized judo must of originated from a martial art that used no gi grips.... makes you wonder why they shun no gi so much then

The samurai garb in Jujitsu probably had some grips. Maybe not exactly the same as a Gi but probably stuff you could hang onto

I think the shunning no-gi comes mainly from keeping it different from wrestling though. I would guess that if you put a high level wrestler against a judoka without the gi, even under Judo rules the Judoka might have some trouble

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

If you want to know how to really wrestle with swords, take a look at Ringen Am Schwert. Here are a couple vids on what it details..




And most definitely look up Hans Talhoffer's work. Here is his work from 1459. http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Fight-Earnestly.pdf
You'll find grappling with and without weapons, and you'll notice a lot of common positions like gutwrenchs and whatnot in the unarmed section. And remember this is from the 1450s!

Reilly, and a bunch of other cats at the gym were talking about trying to start a grappling with swords dealio...but it never panned out because leather is expensive as balls.

What kind of swords?
How about axes, maces and clubs?

The protection against swords and blunt weapons include a lot more than leather and its not manufactured on a large scale.
Mostly handmade.

Starting kit for sword fighting practice costs about $2.000 and includes chainmail, gambeson, leather boots, pants, sabre, sword, helmet, gauntlets and etc.

A surgery for shuttered knee or back from blunt weapon impact costs quite a lot.

 

[Kforcer]

I’d imagine grappling was a huge part of a armored sword fight, considering slashing armor doesn’t really do much. Prob easier to trip them then stab them with a knife.

I just realized judo must of originated from a martial art that used no gi grips.... makes you wonder why they shun no gi so much then

Well, if you look at the guys that came from the Handa jujutsu school, Tani, Uyenishi, etc., they often wore shorts and a short-sleeved, open shirt. So they weren't exactly gi or no-gi. They had clothing to grab onto, but it didn't cover their entire bodies.

 

[I am your real dad]

Awsome

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

So this video here shows the basics of what I would basically call HEMA grappling, grappling techniques based on the writings of Fiore.

Now it's interesting to see because I imagine knights (especially Italian knights) would have been trained in wrestling of the ancient styles, wrestling is by no means new.

And before you cast it off because of the overweightedness of the men in the video, Fiore was literally one of the best swordsman of the era, his principles are still very relevant in competition today.

I do imagine if he felt these grappling positions relevant enough to mention there must have been a reason, and that he didn't just discuss these positions haphazardly.

So any points of discussion from this?

It advises a very different stance than a standard grappling stance.

Iron gates is the main stance I was told to maintain, it advises keeping the hands down on one side of the body, with a bladed stance, with weight low.

I don't have any videos about this, but I could make some eventually.
The idea is basically to use a wide circular motion to redirect any attacks and grabs and counter attack or grab.

Anyways what do you think about this style, anything new in it you would consider using?

Looks like standard self-defense sequences that won't work on anyone with a pulse.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Well, if you look at the guys that came from the Handa jujutsu school, Tani, Uyenishi, etc., they often wore shorts and a short-sleeved, open shirt. So they weren't exactly gi or no-gi. They had clothing to grab onto, but it didn't cover their entire bodies.

1. There was no Handa jiujitsu school.
Some 7 years ago, there was a dickhead on these boards, trying to present himself as a historian and to build the case for the "Handa dojo".
He couldn't provide a single source of his claims.
And I have seen the official documents in Japanese.
Handa dojo never was.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/choque-the-official-thread.2803359/page-10

2. Old training gis were short sleeved and yet, they were for gripping.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Looks like standard self-defense sequences that won't work on anyone with a pulse.

A few guys that compete in Buhurt (the hardcore version of HEMA, using armours, maces, axes) came asking me to teach them how to throw opponents on the ground ,because same as most grappling styles, only feet can touch the ground, meaning if you throw someone on the ground, he loses...because...well, he aint getting back up, if you unleash on him with a mace or a halberd.

So, anytime you see a guy explaining how people use to grapple in the middle ages, you have to keep in mind he is not a grappler himself and he most probably asked someone like me, then added bunch of non-functioning shit.

EDIT:
A quick brake down of the video- he obviously went to aikido guy to show him something.
I would show him using the Russian Tie for the same purpose.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

So, anytime you see a guy explaining how people use to grapple in the middle ages, you have to keep in mind he is not a grappler himself and he most probably asked someone like me, then added bunch of non-functioning shit.

Ok, first of all, in my mind, that disqualifies him from teaching it.
Second, I tend to be very skeptical of HEMA types even on the sword stuff. These guys place way too much weight on engravings to determine their combat systems and you see them applying retarded principles to stances and footwork just because they saw it in some obscure book. Not all of them obviously but way too many of them. These dudes should cut their ponytails, do some pushups and spar more.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

A few guys that compete in Buhurt (the hardcore version of HEMA, using armours, maces, axes) came asking me to teach them how to throw opponents on the ground ,because same as most grappling styles, only feet can touch the ground, meaning if you throw someone on the ground, he loses...because...well, he aint getting back up, if you unleash on him with a mace or a halberd.

So, anytime you see a guy explaining how people use to grapple in the middle ages, you have to keep in mind he is not a grappler himself and he most probably asked someone like me, then added bunch of non-functioning shit.

EDIT:
A quick brake down of the video- he obviously went to aikido guy to show him something.
I would show him using the Russian Tie for the same purpose.

Sorry I just wanted to add to that: if they sparred a little more, they would realise just how critical is the ability to grapple in swordfighting and they would train it seriously, not fooling themselves into thinking that practicing 5 sequences with a complying apanyent is going to do it.

But unfortunately, most of HEMA types are the same kind of profiles that go into aikido or animal kung fu --> not interested at all about the sparring.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Ok, first of all, in my mind, that disqualifies him from teaching it.
Second, I tend to be very skeptical of HEMA types even on the sword stuff. These guys place way too much weight on engravings to determine their combat systems and you see them applying retarded principles to stances and footwork just because they saw it in some obscure book. Not all of them obviously but way too many of them. These dudes should cut their ponytails, do some pushups and spar more.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Kforcer]

1. There was no Handa jiujitsu school.
Some 7 years ago, there was a dickhead on these boards, trying to present himself as a historian and to build the case for the "Handa dojo".
He couldn't provide a single source of his claims.
And I have seen the official documents in Japanese.
Handa dojo never was.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/choque-the-official-thread.2803359/page-10

2. Old training gis were short sleeved and yet, they were for gripping.

So you're saying Yataro Handa never existed? I was probably wrong to say "Handa jujutsu" as by at least some accounts, it was Tanabae teaching at Handa's school that produced submission-oriented guys like SK Uyenishi, Yukio Tani, Taro Miyake, etc. But at the same time, Taro Miyake referred to Handa in an interview as his teacher.

Are you saying that Yataro Handa and his school in Osaka never existed or are you saying that Handa didn't have a unique style of jujutsu he propagated?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

So you're saying Yataro Handa never existed? I was probably wrong to say "Handa jujutsu" as by at least some accounts, it was Tanabae teaching at Handa's school that produced submission-oriented guys like SK Uyenishi, Yukio Tani, Taro Miyake, etc. But at the same time, Taro Miyake referred to Handa in an interview as his teacher.

Are you saying that Yataro Handa and his school in Osaka never existed or are you saying that Handa didn't have a unique style of jujutsu he propagated?

Handa was simply an instructor in a dojo (NOT HIS).
There is zero evidence he created unique style, focused on ground fighting.
As I mentioned in the linked thread, all such records are well preserved in Osaka municipality and I made the effort to research.

 

[Kforcer]

Handa was simply an instructor in a dojo (NOT HIS).
There is zero evidence he created unique style, focused on ground fighting.
As I mentioned in the linked thread, all such records are well preserved in Osaka municipality and I made the effort to research.

So in your opinion, then, was it Tanabae that Uyenishi, Tani and Miyake got their submission-oriented approach from? Miyake and Uyenishi both mention Handa as an instructor in English interviews, though there could be a mistranslation, certainly. I have heard people say that Tanabae was the one who taught those guys their grappling game, simply at the dojo run by Handa.

It is interesting though, that Miyake and Uyenishi both mention Handa. Of course, sometimes people give credit to a guy they liked more than a guy who may have taught them more who they liked less, or may not really appreciate one guy as much as another for whatever reason. Or maybe Handa was just the senior between Tanabae and himself, hence Uyenishi and Miyake mentioning him. There could be multiple reasons they chose to mention Handa, I suppose.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

So in your opinion, then, was it Tanabae that Uyenishi, Tani and Miyake got their submission-oriented approach from? Miyake and Uyenishi both mention Handa as an instructor in English interviews, though there could be a mistranslation, certainly. I have heard people say that Tanabae was the one who taught those guys their grappling game, simply at the dojo run by Handa.

It is interesting though, that Miyake and Uyenishi both mention Handa. Of course, sometimes people give credit to a guy they liked more than a guy who may have taught them more who they liked less, or may not really appreciate one guy as much as another for whatever reason. Or maybe Handa was just the senior between Tanabae and himself, hence Uyenishi and Miyake mentioning him. There could be multiple reasons they chose to mention Handa, I suppose.

I dont have an opinion on the matter, because it simply doesnt interests me.

Ive been in those dojos and have seen what they teach there.
It has nothing to do with ground fighting.
Its closer to aikido.

The whole "lineage research" is so flawed, its not even funny.
And Im baffled so many people buy into such a load of crap.

Even more resent researchers, like Drysdale, have failed to do the simple thing:
File a request for access to Kodokan archives, where EVERYTHING is kept.
Then get a translator and present raw information, without any bias.

Instead, people want to hear about mystical guys, practicing God knows what, God knows where and no official records to show.