Grappling Medieval Swordsman Style

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by MarcoW, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. MarcoW

    MarcoW Bojacked Horsehungman

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLZyxtlb3F0

    So this video here shows the basics of what I would basically call HEMA grappling, grappling techniques based on the writings of Fiore.

    Now it's interesting to see because I imagine knights (especially Italian knights) would have been trained in wrestling of the ancient styles, wrestling is by no means new.

    And before you cast it off because of the overweightedness of the men in the video, Fiore was literally one of the best swordsman of the era, his principles are still very relevant in competition today.

    I do imagine if he felt these grappling positions relevant enough to mention there must have been a reason, and that he didn't just discuss these positions haphazardly.

    So any points of discussion from this?

    It advises a very different stance than a standard grappling stance.

    Iron gates is the main stance I was told to maintain, it advises keeping the hands down on one side of the body, with a bladed stance, with weight low.

    I don't have any videos about this, but I could make some eventually.
    The idea is basically to use a wide circular motion to redirect any attacks and grabs and counter attack or grab.

    Anyways what do you think about this style, anything new in it you would consider using?
     
  2. green1

    green1 White Belt

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    I do find this type of stuff interesting, fenced all though college and dabbled in some historic stuff, then been doing judo, muay thai and bjj for years as an adult.

    One weird thing is muay thai and jujitsu/judo all kind of evolved from armed combat into what we have now. Kinda cool

    That said the video definitely had some aikido flavor, kind of not my style at this point

    Not to say it "wrong" as a lot of the basic stances are being interpreted from woodcuts and I think a lot of it WAS stylized.

    that said i feel like HEMA wrestling was probably a bit more rough and tumble and tricky then inferred at times

    Its cool to see that because I have read about the "iron gates" recently in some random Miles Cameron books and that was not what I thought it was, my vague impression was its a move where you used your gauntlets combined with your blade (possibly a dagger) to lock down your opponents weapon and then arm-lock/throw the dude

    Interesting because i honestly imagined ippon seoi nage with a sword haha
     
  3. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Anytime you're dealing with long weapons, especially really heavy ones like longswords, grappling plays a huge role as it's much faster in many cases to counter a missed blow or follow up on a counter with a throw or body strike (think shoulder blow) than to get your sword around to strike. In general I take historical stuff like this at more or less face value, if guys were writing manuals used by actual soldiers and duelists in life and death combat they're probably pretty quick to shed whatever doesn't work. In terms of stances, of course they'll be different than a normal grappling stance. Your primary weapon and the primary danger from your opponent is still the sword not grappling, so your stance will have to be designed to allow for defense against the sword and facilitate your own sword blows. Grappling would always be secondary to that.
     
  4. TheHereticJay

    TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    If you want to know how to really wrestle with swords, take a look at Ringen Am Schwert. Here are a couple vids on what it details..




    And most definitely look up Hans Talhoffer's work. Here is his work from 1459. http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Fight-Earnestly.pdf
    You'll find grappling with and without weapons, and you'll notice a lot of common positions like gutwrenchs and whatnot in the unarmed section. And remember this is from the 1450s!

    Reilly, and a bunch of other cats at the gym were talking about trying to start a grappling with swords dealio...but it never panned out because leather is expensive as balls.
     

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