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Awesome, I always wanted to live out Logan's Run for real.
Google, Alphabet's Vision for Toronto. "SideWalks"
- Thread starter MikeMcMann
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actually the Mayor and most of council has been pretty solidly behind this.
Remember Toronto inherited all the dead land when the polluters packed up and left it with a bunch of taxes owing. And Toronto cannot afford to fix it so they have sat on it now for like 25 years.
If Google buys it, they become responsible for fixing it. They can be forced to no matter how bad it is. And if they build on it, the City starts getting taxes on a huge swatch of prime real estate they have not been getting taxes from. Plus its a huge employer. Plus they will be building out transit. Plus they will give the City huge prestige with a showcase community.
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no one is assuming they are doing it for altruistic purposes. Ultimately, people are willing to share data for the sake of convenience. Have you boycotted smartphones and only use internet through encrypted proxies?
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I see this becoming mega-corporations owning housing districts, monitoring and controlling everything that happens there 24/7/365. Kids being born there, live and work there their entire lives, die there. Reminds me of some Shadowrun shit.
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The battle against this continues with apparently no other option for the long vacant and toxic land no one wants to touch due to contamination.
Again this is arguably some of Toronto's potentially most valuable Water Front property no one will touch due to it being a shipping doc prior and the lands contaminated requiring whoever buys it and applies for development permits to bring the ground back up to city standards regardless of how ugly or expensive once they start digging down.
So the options being 'let a big corporation develop it and foot the bill and subsidize that thru data collection with willing residents'
OR
'leave it vacant and with no plan for decades more because people must be protected from themselves when it comes to data sharing.'
(btw I am one who believes there is a legit gov't role in them determining limits on what data collection a company can ask for, particularly from minors)
In ethics report, NDP calls on Ottawa to halt Sidewalk Labs commitments pending further consultations
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The New Democratic Party is using an ethics committee study on privacy to ask the federal government to end any commitments with Google sister-company Sidewalk Labs for its proposed smart-city development on Toronto’s waterfront until a final plan is available.
...
The proposal is for a community with sensors throughout it gathering data on how people there live, raising questions about how the information would be collected and used.
...
Waterfront Toronto, which represents all three levels of government, announced in October, 2017, that Alphabet Inc.-owned Sidewalk had been selected to develop plans for the land. Sidewalk gave the public agency a draft of the final plan for the 12-acre site called Quayside earlier this week, and is expected to make it public by next Monday.
...
“It is about how these companies interact with public process,” Mr. Angus said in an interview. “If they’re going to be working with cities, they need to pick up their game.”
...
The party’s report also agrees with scholar Shoshana Zuboff’s opinion of letting an Alphabet-owned company plan a community. Ms. Zuboff’s most recent book, The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, takes aim at Big Tech’s business model of monetizing personal data. “The front line of this war between surveillance capitalism and democracy is being waged in Canada – specifically, in the city of Toronto,” she told the Grand Committee last month.
Mr. McNamee offered a similar comment: “I just don’t believe that any business — not Google, not anybody — should be in the business of operating our public spaces and our civic infrastructure.”
...
In an e-mailed statement, the anti-Sidewalk Labs group #BlockSidewalk supported the NDP’s supplemental report. “The last thing we need is for Waterfront Toronto to prolong this flawed process in ways that allows [Sidewalk and Google’s parent company Alphabet] to unload boatloads of cash to further influence decision makers and market its products,” said organizer Thorben Wieditz.
Again this is arguably some of Toronto's potentially most valuable Water Front property no one will touch due to it being a shipping doc prior and the lands contaminated requiring whoever buys it and applies for development permits to bring the ground back up to city standards regardless of how ugly or expensive once they start digging down.
So the options being 'let a big corporation develop it and foot the bill and subsidize that thru data collection with willing residents'
OR
'leave it vacant and with no plan for decades more because people must be protected from themselves when it comes to data sharing.'
(btw I am one who believes there is a legit gov't role in them determining limits on what data collection a company can ask for, particularly from minors)
In ethics report, NDP calls on Ottawa to halt Sidewalk Labs commitments pending further consultations
The New Democratic Party is using an ethics committee study on privacy to ask the federal government to end any commitments with Google sister-company Sidewalk Labs for its proposed smart-city development on Toronto’s waterfront until a final plan is available.
...
The proposal is for a community with sensors throughout it gathering data on how people there live, raising questions about how the information would be collected and used.
...
Waterfront Toronto, which represents all three levels of government, announced in October, 2017, that Alphabet Inc.-owned Sidewalk had been selected to develop plans for the land. Sidewalk gave the public agency a draft of the final plan for the 12-acre site called Quayside earlier this week, and is expected to make it public by next Monday.
...
“It is about how these companies interact with public process,” Mr. Angus said in an interview. “If they’re going to be working with cities, they need to pick up their game.”
...
The party’s report also agrees with scholar Shoshana Zuboff’s opinion of letting an Alphabet-owned company plan a community. Ms. Zuboff’s most recent book, The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, takes aim at Big Tech’s business model of monetizing personal data. “The front line of this war between surveillance capitalism and democracy is being waged in Canada – specifically, in the city of Toronto,” she told the Grand Committee last month.
Mr. McNamee offered a similar comment: “I just don’t believe that any business — not Google, not anybody — should be in the business of operating our public spaces and our civic infrastructure.”
...
In an e-mailed statement, the anti-Sidewalk Labs group #BlockSidewalk supported the NDP’s supplemental report. “The last thing we need is for Waterfront Toronto to prolong this flawed process in ways that allows [Sidewalk and Google’s parent company Alphabet] to unload boatloads of cash to further influence decision makers and market its products,” said organizer Thorben Wieditz.
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Well this is coming down to the short strokes and moving into the final consultation stages that should see this put to a vote.
Does the City proceed with Public/Private Partnership that they sought out and requested and celebrated, because what should be one of the most valuable pieces of Toronto Waterfront has sat derelict and as a blight for decades due to what could be massive land rehabilitation costs due to decades of pollution seep into the ground that no developer is willing to risk?
Alphabet, Googles parent company, stepped up and is willing to put up all the risk capital to be the partner to make this happen as it allows them to test a huge grand vision of creating a connecting city from the ground up. Of course Google is looking at the benefits they would gain through Data collection and other but, make no mistake, this provides massive gains for the city in forms of huge tax revenues now and ongoing, social housing gains, more high paying jobs and other for Toronto and Canada. Here are 5 Things you might want to know about the plan, summarized.
What was first celebrated however became the focus of legit concerns but also 'anti corporate', activists in Toronto whose concerns seem to the template 'Big Corporation bad, ...make profit .... must be stopped' crowd that wish to do so without regard for what they may leave behind or cost others in terms of benefits.
I do think their are and were very legit concerns and I do think Alphabet has gone the extra mile to address them. Here are the quick highlights of the major concerns and how Alphabet addressed them:
If anyone wants to see the Alphabet/Google vision laid out or read the entire 1500 page plan submitted you can do so here.
Does the City proceed with Public/Private Partnership that they sought out and requested and celebrated, because what should be one of the most valuable pieces of Toronto Waterfront has sat derelict and as a blight for decades due to what could be massive land rehabilitation costs due to decades of pollution seep into the ground that no developer is willing to risk?
Alphabet, Googles parent company, stepped up and is willing to put up all the risk capital to be the partner to make this happen as it allows them to test a huge grand vision of creating a connecting city from the ground up. Of course Google is looking at the benefits they would gain through Data collection and other but, make no mistake, this provides massive gains for the city in forms of huge tax revenues now and ongoing, social housing gains, more high paying jobs and other for Toronto and Canada. Here are 5 Things you might want to know about the plan, summarized.
What was first celebrated however became the focus of legit concerns but also 'anti corporate', activists in Toronto whose concerns seem to the template 'Big Corporation bad, ...make profit .... must be stopped' crowd that wish to do so without regard for what they may leave behind or cost others in terms of benefits.
I do think their are and were very legit concerns and I do think Alphabet has gone the extra mile to address them. Here are the quick highlights of the major concerns and how Alphabet addressed them:
- We heard the concerns about data privacy. That’s why we’ve proposed a government-sanctioned, independent urban data trust. And it’s why Sidewalk Labs has committed to de-identification and privacy-by-design principles; to not selling personal information or using personal information for advertising purposes; and to not sharing personal information with any of our sibling Alphabet companies, including Google, without consent.
- We heard the concerns about land grabs. This plan proposes a limited role for Sidewalk Labs with government in the lead. Working with local partners, Sidewalk Labs would develop less than 7 percent of the eastern waterfront.
- We heard the concerns about private interests. Sidewalk Labs would shoulder a disproportionate share of the cost of upfront innovation; in aggregate, Sidewalk Labs and partners would provide up to $1.3 billion in funding and financing. We propose to make money on real estate development, fees on advisory services, charges on any optional financing provided, and a performance payment for hitting agreed-upon targets. Much of this would come only after public goals are achieved.
If anyone wants to see the Alphabet/Google vision laid out or read the entire 1500 page plan submitted you can do so here.
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For those who do not understand why such prime and coveted Waterfront land would sit for decades as a blight with no developer willing to touch it, I will explain.
This land not only represents lost opportunity to the City in terms of the cash it would have made and collected over the decades if developed but it represents a cost as the levels of gov't support the land and earn no income from it.
This was land used for decades as a Port in Toronto by Shipping companies using it offload imported goods such as sugar, oil and gas, and other into Toronto and off to N.America locales. Many people do not realize that what appears to be land locked Toronto, in the centre of the country, actually receives in, still, Ocean liner traffic coming in from the Atlantic Ocean, and following the St Lawrence river all the way into downtown Toronto. Yes the St. Lawrence river can handle the biggest ocean liners.
I am certainly not anti corporate (I have started and run and exited 3 companies) but this is perfect example of Crony Capitalism and its harm railed upon by many on the left. This issue is the cost left behind once a company is done with an area and moves on and how citizens are often left with that cost after the corporations take out all the profits. Due to limited liability and other laws that do not price in properly the full cost of the after effect you have a situation in Toronto's Eastern Waterfront, where the companies who raked in huge profits for decades where able to abandon the lands once done leaving a toxic soup in the ground that no one would want to touch.
You often see a similar thing inn residential neighbourhoods where there was once a gas station, it shut down, but developers won't buy or touch the land for about 7 years or more after.
Why?
Because as soon as that land has new ownership and they look to develop it the gov't can and will do environmental tests on the land and before granting permits REQUIRE the new owner to bring the land back up to spec. It is possible that unknown cost of doing so could make the entire proposed development unprofitable and thus not financeable. But once the gov't has found the toxins and other they can still impose an order on the new owner to clean it up, even if they are not developing it. They can seize all that new owners assets and liquidate them and apply that money to cleaning it up as these order are mandatory.
Do to the limited liability of the prior giant corporations they just get to walk away. the gov't then basically inherits these lands when no one pays the taxes and they do not force themselves to clean it up but they will force any new private owner.
so what Alphabet has jumped into here is a big unknown risk re the cost of remediation of that land. it is only once deep soil cores are taken and tested that the extent of the clean and cost will be known. they have low end and high end estimates and I am sure they are ok with both, but sometimes things on sites like this go horribly wrong and Alphabet/Google could be forced to pay a lot.
that is why this is such a big benefit Toronto as no one else has wanted to risk this and thus some of Toronto's best WaterFront property has sat as a blight for decades.
if any large developer in the future thought, 'this land has sat long enough, most toxins should be gone' and bought this land from the gov't it would almost certainly be a condo developer looking to put in yet another massive string of ultra high end condo's in Toronto. And we know some of the bigger ones have looked in the past. They would have the margin to take some risk. And i have nothing against massive developers nor high end condo's. I like to live in the latter, so its not about that.
To me, this is about Alphabet/google taking a huge risk to bring a big vision of mixed housing and employment and park lands to that section of Waterfront and ADD to the overall aesthetic and appeal of the entire city. The biggest complaint about Toronto's waterfront currently is that it ws given over to COndo developers who had no concern for its connectivity and accessibility for all the people who want to visit the Waterfront. Unlike in cities like Chicago you cannot walk Torontos water front without go in and out to the street to get around the condos that break it up.
This Eastern Stretch of waterfront in the Alphabet plan would be fully accessible to all and a massive improvement to what is there, especially when you consider if its not done, the blight is likely to remain for decades more. If the 'anti-corporate' shills manage to block this and celebrate a win over 'big corp's' while ignoring what they leave behind, that would be a true shame.
This land not only represents lost opportunity to the City in terms of the cash it would have made and collected over the decades if developed but it represents a cost as the levels of gov't support the land and earn no income from it.
This was land used for decades as a Port in Toronto by Shipping companies using it offload imported goods such as sugar, oil and gas, and other into Toronto and off to N.America locales. Many people do not realize that what appears to be land locked Toronto, in the centre of the country, actually receives in, still, Ocean liner traffic coming in from the Atlantic Ocean, and following the St Lawrence river all the way into downtown Toronto. Yes the St. Lawrence river can handle the biggest ocean liners.
I am certainly not anti corporate (I have started and run and exited 3 companies) but this is perfect example of Crony Capitalism and its harm railed upon by many on the left. This issue is the cost left behind once a company is done with an area and moves on and how citizens are often left with that cost after the corporations take out all the profits. Due to limited liability and other laws that do not price in properly the full cost of the after effect you have a situation in Toronto's Eastern Waterfront, where the companies who raked in huge profits for decades where able to abandon the lands once done leaving a toxic soup in the ground that no one would want to touch.
You often see a similar thing inn residential neighbourhoods where there was once a gas station, it shut down, but developers won't buy or touch the land for about 7 years or more after.
Why?
Because as soon as that land has new ownership and they look to develop it the gov't can and will do environmental tests on the land and before granting permits REQUIRE the new owner to bring the land back up to spec. It is possible that unknown cost of doing so could make the entire proposed development unprofitable and thus not financeable. But once the gov't has found the toxins and other they can still impose an order on the new owner to clean it up, even if they are not developing it. They can seize all that new owners assets and liquidate them and apply that money to cleaning it up as these order are mandatory.
Do to the limited liability of the prior giant corporations they just get to walk away. the gov't then basically inherits these lands when no one pays the taxes and they do not force themselves to clean it up but they will force any new private owner.
so what Alphabet has jumped into here is a big unknown risk re the cost of remediation of that land. it is only once deep soil cores are taken and tested that the extent of the clean and cost will be known. they have low end and high end estimates and I am sure they are ok with both, but sometimes things on sites like this go horribly wrong and Alphabet/Google could be forced to pay a lot.
that is why this is such a big benefit Toronto as no one else has wanted to risk this and thus some of Toronto's best WaterFront property has sat as a blight for decades.
if any large developer in the future thought, 'this land has sat long enough, most toxins should be gone' and bought this land from the gov't it would almost certainly be a condo developer looking to put in yet another massive string of ultra high end condo's in Toronto. And we know some of the bigger ones have looked in the past. They would have the margin to take some risk. And i have nothing against massive developers nor high end condo's. I like to live in the latter, so its not about that.
To me, this is about Alphabet/google taking a huge risk to bring a big vision of mixed housing and employment and park lands to that section of Waterfront and ADD to the overall aesthetic and appeal of the entire city. The biggest complaint about Toronto's waterfront currently is that it ws given over to COndo developers who had no concern for its connectivity and accessibility for all the people who want to visit the Waterfront. Unlike in cities like Chicago you cannot walk Torontos water front without go in and out to the street to get around the condos that break it up.
This Eastern Stretch of waterfront in the Alphabet plan would be fully accessible to all and a massive improvement to what is there, especially when you consider if its not done, the blight is likely to remain for decades more. If the 'anti-corporate' shills manage to block this and celebrate a win over 'big corp's' while ignoring what they leave behind, that would be a true shame.
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Why don't you Google that?
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so they're going to help people, AND create a Person of Interest type surveillance system?
Nothing can possibly go wrong w/ that!
Nothing can possibly go wrong w/ that!
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Without a doubt the increased privacy concerns are an issue gov'ts need to revisit and not just with regards to this. I have written constantly on this forum how people have no clue what type of privacy releases they are accepting just when downloading App's, as they don't read them, and how those 'permissions' are getting more and more pervasive and arguably sinister.
i do think gov't needs to serve a role and simply set a bunch of prohibitions which corporations cannot ask people to wave or sign away without compelling reasons. There is no reason for a free Cell Phone Flashlight or Calculator App to get permission to access all your data, change or replace your data, change or replace other apps on your phone, copy, publish or sell your contact info, etc. They are giving away the Apps to compile these permission lists to sell to someone in the future who can utilize them. You want to get 1 million uploads of your new App on day 1 so your IPO gets lots of press. Well I have 1 million permissions to add Apps to people's phones without their consent.
Anyway Alphabet has addressed this quite well and in a reasonable way I think as I quote in post 28 and again here...
I do think their are and were very legit concerns and I do think Alphabet has gone the extra mile to address them. Here are the quick highlights of the major concerns and how Alphabet addressed them:
- We heard the concerns about data privacy. That’s why we’ve proposed a government-sanctioned, independent urban data trust. And it’s why Sidewalk Labs has committed to de-identification and privacy-by-design principles; to not selling personal information or using personal information for advertising purposes; and to not sharing personal information with any of our sibling Alphabet companies, including Google, without consent.
- We heard the concerns about land grabs. This plan proposes a limited role for Sidewalk Labs with government in the lead. Working with local partners, Sidewalk Labs would develop less than 7 percent of the eastern waterfront.
- We heard the concerns about private interests. Sidewalk Labs would shoulder a disproportionate share of the cost of upfront innovation; in aggregate, Sidewalk Labs and partners would provide up to $1.3 billion in funding and financing. We propose to make money on real estate development, fees on advisory services, charges on any optional financing provided, and a performance payment for hitting agreed-upon targets. Much of this would come only after public goals are achieved.
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Something came to my mind as I saw that there's a controversy between Alphabet and the city as to how much land they're gonna take. When it comes to any group that pushes back against them on anything, whether it's a government agency or a citizen's group or a business association or NGO or whatever else. The people who are involved with it, Alphabet probably has access to so much of their personal information that they can devise the best way to influence or leverage them to getting with the program. It's scary to think sometimes how powerful this corporation is and how much data they really have on everyone, and I think as we move forward we're gonna see the lines between corporation and government get increasingly blurred.
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Shit, I remember waterfront revitalization when I was back in school. I think it's still a pipe dream.
Edit: I also remember being a university student and being at an intersection counting cars, for modelling traffic projections. Technology nowadays is a blessing and curse.
Edit: I also remember being a university student and being at an intersection counting cars, for modelling traffic projections. Technology nowadays is a blessing and curse.
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Thank the lawd for countries where this is completely immpossible on all levels.
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It's teh deep state bro!
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But some have 2 mommies, get it straight man.We all have parents.
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What do you mean? Being progressive and proactive and getting things done that benefit citizens and the community instead of having toxic vacant land just sitting there for decades??
