Goodbye Fedor vs. Crocop: The HW division is on a whole new level now

[Bubblun]

Don't try to spin it. You said he was doing a drill to warm up the hips:

"That's Fedor armbar in a drill that everybody uses before training in every judo and bjj academy, just to warm up the hips".

Man up.

And that exactly what I meant, the usual pendolum armbar warm up drill everybody do since they start.
Not realistic because you don't control the head.

I have a broken english because it's not my language, don't try to play around it, I know perfectly what you are doing.
What about the proper posture to have in closed guard?
And why we rarely see submissions from the guard these days? Never asked yourself that?

Also, back up your claim that DC is one of the most elusive fighters in MMA. Bring stats and everything.

Cheers.​

Go check them yourself, I don't even know where to find it.

 

[Bubblun]

This video is very relevant to the discussion

 

[SarevokAnchev]

This video is very relevant to the discussion

The idea that Sonnen has in this video pressuposes that pretty much any new fighter is better than the old one by default. This is obviously and demonstratively false. His arguing is fallacious aswell, basically, anyone who says Gretzky>Ovechkin or Jordan>Lebron are just nostalgic.

And the fundamental problem is a very widespread one: Chael does, as many others confuse evolution with improvement.

 

[Bubblun]

The idea that Sonnen has in this video pressuposes that pretty much any new fighter is better than the old one by default. This is obviously and demonstratively false. His arguing is fallacious aswell, basically, anyone who says Gretzky>Ovechkin or Jordan>Lebron are just nostalgic.

And the fundamental problem is a very widespread one: Chael does, as many others confuse evolution with improvement.

Chael has been into mma since day 1, the guy has seen everything from the start.
His argument, since you missed it, is that the sport has progressed a lot, there was no method in the training, the sport was not figured out like today, people that were training with their buddies in a garage were world champions.
This is obviously and demonstratively true.

Call it evolution, call it improvement, call it what you want, the sport has grown and the level of the fighters has grown.

 

[Heelhook71]

Fedor would lose to any top 15 HW
dude frickin Ryan Bader KO'd him in like 15 seconds

Yep and he’s at exactly the same level of performance and durability as he was when he was a champ 10 years ago. Because that never changes with time. Am I right?

 

[SarevokAnchev]

Chael has been into mma since day 1, the guy has seen everything from the start.
His argument, since you missed it, is that the sport has progressed a lot, there was no method in the training, the sport was not figured out like today, people that were training with their buddies in a garage were world champions.
This is obviously and demonstratively true.

Call it evolution, call it improvement, call it what you want, the sport has grown and the level of the fighters has grown.

His argument is invalid. Call it wishful thinking or glorifying the future. He literally said that LeBron is better than Jordan because "evolution".

Now, on the evolution and MMA. Sure, there was a period in MMA in the early 90's when MMA was in it's beginnings, fighters were rather unblanced etc. But 2005 for example is different story. Fedor and CroCop were very well-balanced fighters, Fedor at his peak had it all except the size, and Mirco was one of the best strikers ever if not the absolute best.

 

[Claude]

And that exactly what I meant, the usual pendolum armbar warm up drill everybody do since they start.
Not realistic because you don't control the head.

I have a broken english because it's not my language, don't try to play around it, I know perfectly what you are doing.
What about the proper posture to have in closed guard?
And why we rarely see submissions from the guard these days? Never asked yourself that?

Don't play the dumb foreigner. Just accept Fedor isn't doing any drill/warm-up.

Go check them yourself, I don't even know where to find it.

It's your claim. You have to back it up, that's how it works.

Or you can just accept that you pulled that claim out of your ass….

 

[ermac88]

The fact is Fedor and Crocop who are around the same age as DC have not been able to compete at an elite level in sanctioned organizations.

CC was immediately knocked out by a gatekeeper upon entering the US

And Fedor hasnt done much better.

 

[Bubblun]

Don't play the dumb foreigner. Just accept Fedor isn't doing any drill/warm-up.



It's your claim. You have to back it up, that's how it works.

Or you can just accept that you pulled that claim out of your ass….

You haven't backed up your claims either buddy, about Fedor being elusive, but I believe you, Fedor was hard to hit.
I say Cormier having lost like 5-6 rounds in his career is quite elusive, but you are too full of shit to accept that you are wrong.
If you got stats that say otherwise, bring them up.

Still waiting about what Cormier did wrong in those pics.
Am I going to wait some more or you still have the "warm-up" excuse?

 

[mjfan23]

Cain is number 8 ranked ufc HW and he is what 1-2? In the last 5 years? Lol

 

[pride_is_back]

Tonight DC and Stipe put on a striking clinc and proved how much the HW division has come along since 2005 when Fedor and Crocop fought for the title.

Nowadays you don't defend leg kicks, you just take them like a man. If you can't, then you don't deserve to be called a fighter. Fedor countering a leg kick:

Defending liver shots proved how underdeveloped fighters were back then. DC ate about 10 liver shots tonight proving his toughness, while that Fedor dude was so scared he blocked them:

Fedor can't pick-up up his opponent like DC, so he just pushes him:

Outdated combo. Today it's all about the jabs and 1-2's (and accidental eye pokes here and there)

Round 2. If they aren't tired, they aren't trying:

Crocop being elusive. Cool, but slavic men aren't scared of punches these days.
Srsly, why aren't they standing flat footed in front of each other like lions?

Eye pokes > Head kick + punch + TD:

Now here's one gif to rule them all (couldn't find one from tonight, but you get the idea):




Stipe throws an epic 1-2 combo and DC dodges them with world class head movement. DC and Miocic are surely the two most refined strikers the world has ever seen.

Time to leave the nostalgia behind and accept the HW division has evolved tremendously.

Stipe = GOAT, even Rogan agrees.

​

This is one of the stupidest post on Sherdog. Fedor is the goat. Get over that, soyboy Jones nuthugger.

 

[Claude]

This video is very relevant to the discussion

Chael is known for saying silly things (although he does say accurate thigs from time to time).

There was a clear evolution in MMA from the 90's when fighters were only sticking to 1 discipline, but if we're talking about the mid 2000's, fighters were already training everything from striking to grappling. Maybe the average MMA fighter is better now, but the elites? I see no proof of that, especially when it comes to the HW division.

Now think about this, out of all the fighters who fought Jones, who has been the closest one to finish him? None other than the most old school fighter you can find: Vitor Belfort. Not just that but he almost finished Jones with an armbar from guard. You know, those things that don't work and no modern fighter would fall far…lol. Then you had Pride fighters like Overeem, Werdum, Big Nog, Barnett, etc. in the top rankings not long ago. If MMA is evolving, there's hardly any proof of it.

Let me ask you, what exactly makes DC such an evolved fighter? His striking? The man eats bombs to the head and body all the time. His wrestling? Wrestling has been around from the very begining. His bjj? Certainly not. Cardio? mhhh...

I agree that DC could beat a prime Randy, but because he's bigger, stronger and a better wrestler than Randy. Not because the sport has evolved. DC's game is as basic as it could get: wrestler with heavy hands. I think a prime Mirko is a terrible match-up for him. Stipe is wrestler with good hands. We've seen that before (Rampage, Chuck).

I simply don't see any indicators that the current elite HW's are any better than those from 15 years ago. Elite HW's nowadays are often fighting uglier, sloppier and seem to get tired a lot quicker.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

This video is very relevant to the discussion

I can't be bothered to listen to Chael spouting his normal nonsense but yeah I would definitely favour Cormier over Randy but really in terms of the mid 00's HW scene was the latter THAT significant to the mid 00's HW scene?

Couture was one of the earliest examples of a wrestler with some standup game who exposed the early Vitor hype but in terms of HW's of the mid 00's what are his achievements? Sylvia, Gonzaga, Rizzo and Randleman. Of those only one really proved himself at the top of the division in Tim and Randy both forced him to fight injuried and landed almost instantly, the others were good but not top level wins and they all pushed Randy VERY hard.

You put Couture at HW in Pride and how well do you think he does? I think he gets absolutely smoked by Fedor, Nog and Crocop plus I'd bet in favour of the likes of Werdum, Barnett, Sergei, Aleks, etc. Couture just didn't have the chin/power or the sub defence to really be at the top of HW by that era IMHO and it would be chin/power were Cormier would have the clear edge on him.

 

[Claude]

You haven't backed up your claims either buddy, about Fedor being elusive, but I believe you, Fedor was hard to hit.
I say Cormier having lost like 5-6 rounds in his career is quite elusive, but you are too full of shit to accept that you are wrong.
If you got stats that say otherwise, bring them up.

Still waiting about what Cormier did wrong in those pics.
Am I going to wait some more or you still have the "warm-up" excuse?

Source of Fedor being elusive was Fightmetric. I can't find the original article, but there's a thread about it:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...trikers-most-elusive-strikers-in-mma.3154475/

Elusive means that you're hard to hit, not that you don't lose rounds. How is DC hard to hit? Oh it's the english again, right?

Still waiting for you to man up about Fedor's seminar.

 

[Claude]

Alright, I'm out for now.

 

[ExitLUPin]

I can't be bothered to listen to Chael spouting his normal nonsense but yeah I would definitely favour Cormier over Randy but really in terms of the mid 00's HW scene was the latter THAT significant to the mid 00's HW scene?

Couture was one of the earliest examples of a wrestler with some standup game who exposed the early Vitor hype but in terms of HW's of the mid 00's what are his achievements? Sylvia, Gonzaga, Rizzo and Randleman. Of those only one really proved himself at the top of the division in Tim and Randy both forced him to fight injuried and landed almost instantly, the others were good but not top level wins and they all pushed Randy VERY hard.

You put Couture at HW in Pride and how well do you think he does? I think he gets absolutely smoked by Fedor, Nog and Crocop plus I'd bet in favour of the likes of Werdum, Barnett, Sergei, Aleks, etc. Couture just didn't have the chin/power or the sub defence to really be at the top of HW by that era IMHO and it would be chin/power were Cormier would have the clear edge on him.

Couture relied on the cage alot for his offense too. Hed struggle in a ring and indeed he did in Japan going 3-3 in RINGS/Vale Tudo, getting finished in every loss and going to the cards in his wins

 

[gevoudane]

Only due to age. Very good Pride fighter and UFC fighters back then would still be good now.

 

[mjfan23]

Chael is known for saying silly things (although he does say accurate thigs from time to time).

There was a clear evolution in MMA from the 90's when fighters were only sticking to 1 discipline, but if we're talking about the mid 2000's, fighters were already training everything from striking to grappling. Maybe the average MMA fighter is better now, but the elites? I see no proof of that, especially when it comes to the HW division.

Now think about this, out of all the fighters who fought Jones, who has been the closest one to finish him? None other than the most old school fighter you can find: Vitor Belfort. Not just that but he almost finished Jones with an armbar from guard. You know, those things that don't work and no modern fighter would fall far…lol. Then you had Pride fighters like Overeem, Werdum, Big Nog, Barnett, etc. in the top rankings not long ago. If MMA is evolving, there's hardly any proof of it.

Let me ask you, what exactly makes DC such an evolved fighter? His striking? The man eats bombs to the head and body all the time. His wrestling? Wrestling has been around from the very begining. His bjj? Certainly not. Cardio? mhhh...

I agree that DC could beat a prime Randy, but because he's bigger, stronger and a better wrestler than Randy. Not because the sport has evolved. DC's game is as basic as it could get: wrestler with heavy hands. I think a prime Mirko is a terrible match-up for him. Stipe is wrestler with good hands. We've seen that before (Rampage, Chuck).

I simply don't see any indicators that the current elite HW's are any better than those from 15 years ago. Elite HW's nowadays are often fighting uglier, sloppier and seem to get tired a lot quicker.

Dude Reem and Hunt are still ranked Heavy weights as is Sergei that’s all you need to know about HWs evolution.

 

[Bubblun]

Chael is known for saying silly things (although he does say accurate thigs from time to time).

There was a clear evolution in MMA from the 90's when fighters were only sticking to 1 discipline, but if we're talking about the mid 2000's, fighters were already training everything from striking to grappling. Maybe the average MMA fighter is better now, but the elites? I see no proof of that, especially when it comes to the HW division.

Now think about this, out of all the fighters who fought Jones, who has been the closest one to finish him? None other than the most old school fighter you can find: Vitor Belfort. Not just that but he almost finished Jones with an armbar from guard. You know, those things that don't work and no modern fighter would fall far…lol. Then you had Pride fighters like Overeem, Werdum, Big Nog, Barnett, etc. in the top rankings not long ago. If MMA is evolving, there's hardly any proof of it.

Let me ask you, what exactly makes DC such an evolved fighter? His striking? The man eats bombs to the head and body all the time. His wrestling? Wrestling has been around from the very begining. His bjj? Certainly not. Cardio? mhhh...

I agree that DC could beat a prime Randy, but because he's bigger, stronger and a better wrestler than Randy. Not because the sport has evolved. DC's game is as basic as it could get: wrestler with heavy hands. I think a prime Mirko is a terrible match-up for him. Stipe is wrestler with good hands. We've seen that before (Rampage, Chuck).

I simply don't see any indicators that the current elite HW's are any better than those from 15 years ago. Elite HW's nowadays are often fighting uglier, sloppier and seem to get tired a lot quicker.

Dude you are too deep into the Fedor and Pride circlejerk to see anything.

Don't bring up Jones, I said 2 years ago that Jones would have been a better fighter to "destroy" to make Fedor look good in your stupid thread which sole purpose was making Cormier look bad to indirectly praise Fedor, the same game you are playing now.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...r-past-present.3416723/page-17#post-138345831

Remember that?
Too bad you chose Cormier, who was super conservative (and green) in that Barnett fight, and had no idea to put himself in danger.

And frankly, the only reason Vitor almost tapped Jones was the surprise factor, something I am telling you from the beginning.
Nobody expected Vitor to pull guard multiple times and trying to win with an armbar.
You surprise someone with a fast armbar and you win, it's an hail mary attack, there is no control over the opponent posture.

Another thing I am telling you from the beginning, is that catching someone with an armbar isn't the proof of being better on the ground.
Jones after using pure strength to escape from Vitor's armbar, dominated Vitor on the ground and submitted him.
Condit almost tapped Chiesa with an armbar from the guard, then Chiesa escaped and dominated Condit on the ground and tapped him.

Fedor has a good quick armbar, but he isn't half as good on the ground as all his nut huggers thinks he is.
Fedor doesn't hip escape, his guard retention is non existent, his guard passing is rudimental, he is just a strong, athletic judoka.

I can't be bothered to listen to Chael spouting his normal nonsense but yeah I would definitely favour Cormier over Randy but really in terms of the mid 00's HW scene was the latter THAT significant to the mid 00's HW scene?

Couture was one of the earliest examples of a wrestler with some standup game who exposed the early Vitor hype but in terms of HW's of the mid 00's what are his achievements? Sylvia, Gonzaga, Rizzo and Randleman. Of those only one really proved himself at the top of the division in Tim and Randy both forced him to fight injuried and landed almost instantly, the others were good but not top level wins and they all pushed Randy VERY hard.

You put Couture at HW in Pride and how well do you think he does? I think he gets absolutely smoked by Fedor, Nog and Crocop plus I'd bet in favour of the likes of Werdum, Barnett, Sergei, Aleks, etc. Couture just didn't have the chin/power or the sub defence to really be at the top of HW by that era IMHO and it would be chin/power were Cormier would have the clear edge on him.

You missed the point completely.
Chael used Randy as an example (Randy Couture is actually Chael idol and mentor), you can put any other name from that era instead of Randy.

But who I am talking to, I have also showed you freaking Shogun Rua telling that mma has evolved, but nope, you won't change your mind.

 

[Bubblun]

Source of Fedor being elusive was Fightmetric. I can't find the original article, but there's a thread about it:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...trikers-most-elusive-strikers-in-mma.3154475/

Elusive means that you're hard to hit, not that you don't lose rounds. How is DC hard to hit? Oh it's the english again, right?

Still waiting for you to man up about Fedor's seminar.

Cormier is hard to hit, Fedor was hard to hit too, never said otherwise.
I don't need stats to see Fedor was hard to hit either.
But you are too full of shit to give praise to another fighter that you hate only because you read someone on the internet saying that is better that Fedor, probably.

So, you should be the one bringing up stats about Cormier being easy to hit, because my eyes see differently.
And Cormier ain't fighting Fujitas and Colemans.


edit: if the source you use is Fightmetric (I don't even know if this website is legit, but let's suppose it is) these are the results

http://www.ufcstats.com/fighter-details/b8da6f5c80ae2d15
http://www.ufcstats.com/fighter-details/d967f0128c323de6

Str. Def: 63% Fedor
SApM: 1.00

Str. Def: 56% Cormier
SApM: 2.75


Such a huge difference, right?

Can't believe I missed the main event to reply to you idiots.