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We'll never fully know who is and isn't, but frankly it's always seemed bizarre to me that so many people on here act like everyone can be assumed to be guilty. That's just not how anything else in society works.
We'll never fully know who is and isn't, but frankly it's always seemed bizarre to me that so many people on here act like everyone can be assumed to be guilty. That's just not how anything else in society works.
In part, this is because other things in society aren't exactly like athletics. Personally, I do not assume everyone is guilty. For example, I offered up that maybe one or two fighters on the list weren't using banned PEDs. But it takes a lot of naivety to assume that the lack of a failed test means an athlete wasn't juicing, and this is especially true at the elite levels.
Maybe an apt example would be politicians and corruption. It's possible that a politician isn't corrupt, but it's naïve to assume that most are not, especially at the highest levels. And while we can sense this in the party we don't like, we are oblivious when it comes to the pols we support.
I've done my findingz based on "level of competition" & give ONE GOAT POINT for every legit high quality win.
I've been drug through teh mud for decades... & teh entire time since I first posted it, however, I adapted my list as your generous though sarcastic retorts would validate. iow... I actually listened & compared what I felt were valid retorts through teh years & this is what I've come up with for high quality wins.
Fedor = 9 – Arona, Herring, Big Nog (Twice) , Cro Cop, Hunt, Arlovski, Sobrol, Coleman I (not 2) (Monson always right there at the gate but never really broke through. Shout out to 60 wins). (This was one of the trickiest lists to develop) (Must consider his run as a multiple Sambo world champ during his GOAT run that the others didn’t have.)
GSP = 9 –Karo, Heiron, Mayhem, Sherk, Fitch, Shieds, Condit, Hendricks, Hughes (but the 2nd Hughes win I'm hard pressed to count due to Hughes not looking all there & proving that point by losing a lot after that & fighting people about to retire.) (Bisping had the belt at the time so that’s a strong case for another GOAT point, but he didn't look that good against a slower GSP & got ktfo in his next fight. I also thought Hendo took the belt from Bisping) (shoutout to an undersized Penn)
Aldo = 8 (9) – Cub, Uriah, Lamas, Jung, Edgar (twice) Mendez (twice) (I'm not going to argue with someone if they think Aldo won that Marlon Moraes fight.)
Spider = 8 – Horn, Franklin (twice), Marquardt, Maia, Belfort, Chael, Hendo (Brunson & Leben are both tough calls because they were kind of the gate keepers "just under the gate"... to the top of the division & they kept a lot of good guys beat back but neither of them quite got past the gate themselves. So shout out for both of those wins but I don't think he gets the GOAT point.)(No GOAT point for Spider’s Newton win due to him stalling on the ground to create that standup that won him the fight. He even got the yellow card.) Jones = 8 – Shogun, Bader, Machida, Vitor, Gus1 (not Gus 2), Teix, Lionheart, & DC (DC Once… the 2nd one he cheated) (Gus just got dun beating Teix before Jones 2 which is a helluva win, but he didn't look the same vs Jones & he certainly didn't after. It's a tough call that could be debated but for now I'm not giving him one.)(I really question Lionhearts win over Gus being proof that he's over the gate because clearly something's gone missing in Gus, but atm I gave it to him & by extension, Jones' GOAT point) - The new look of the division is very difficult to access, because there's no real gate atm. All these guys that were under the gate all of a sudden moved into the top spots. Couture - 8 –Vitor x2, Horn, Randleman, Rizzo x2, Liddell, Tito (Couture was a 2 division champ) (could give him a shout for Tim Silvia who didn't look good at all & went on to prove something went missing... but he did have the belt when Couture fought him.) (Gonzaga went on to beat Ben Rothwell but that's a little to little too late. That was cool the way Gabe KO'ed CroCop, but it was the hype from that win that got him the title shot. After seeing CroCops following record in the cage I'm not sure it was even justified so it's hard to give a GOAT point for that)
Sakuraba = 7 - Conan, Vernon White, Carlos Newton, Belfort, 90 min Royce followed by HW Igor fight (that he threw down in), Rampage, Randleman (I have a pretty detailed breakdown about his career that I wrote out while working on this list... but with Conan & Vernon both being mid-tier fighters with only one considerable win vs "fairly" top competition after fighting Saku, it should be noted that Saku gets their GOAT point due to that + the weight difference + a masterful performance throwing it over the top.) (Please ask for further breakdown if you doubt this)
Stipe = 7 - Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Reem, JDS, Ngannou, DC 2 (not DC3, DC said he was going to wrestle & then gassed after one attempt... clearly beyond his prime in his retirement fight... plus the Eye poke makes me question a GOAT point too - Karma right... lol)
DC= 7 - "prime & juiced" Bigfoot, Barnett, Rumble 1 (not 2), Gus, Volkan, Black Beast, Stipe (DC was a 2 division champ) (shout out to MW Hendo & Spider) (Black Beast could be questioned but he's been on the upper side of the gate holding everyone back & say what you want about the way he moves... the man gets results. I give it to DC's talent for making it look fairly easy)
Mouse = 7 - Benevidez (twice), Dodson (twice), Moraga, Kyoji, Cejudo (I haven't considered his ONE fights)
Matt Hughes – 6 (9) Akihiro Gono, Newton (x2), Sherk, GSP, BJ Penn, (BJ Penn is questionable, because he was undersized, and I didn’t give GSP credit for his Penn win which was one fight apart, but because Penn caught Hughes in a sub prior to that, I gave Hughes a GOAT point for returning the favor with strikes. I wouldn't really argue with someone one way or the other too much about Giving Hughes a GOAT point for Penn for the reason's stated. I can see both sides of that difficult question. Penn bless.) (maybe Dave Menne, Doerksen, Sakurai. It was very challenging going through his earlier record because I didn’t know most of them, but I spent the time to tediously look into them. These 3 “maybe’s” were upper level guys but I question whether they were above the gate… I might be convinced if someone wants to make that case, we'll watch the fights again & see what we think. At the least, they should get honorable mention.)
Edit: Pride waz admittedly a "fix" for teh firs 10 events. After that, they realized what they had & they became more legit. Chael sayz that fights were still rigged after that due to people "losing" on purpose in certain fights, (while the winner was oblivious to teh fix) but I find that hard to digest at the upper most level regarding Fedor's "significant" wins. I just don't think those top fighters would've sold their top spot for pay. I could be wrong, but anyone wanting to contest that can bring their gripe to teh table and let’s discuss it. I've already discussed many... so please have a valid retort if you feel to bother me with this kind of denial.
Great list and breakdowns! I DO think you’re selling Aldo a little short by leaving off Moicano and Vera and maybe even Font (but I could go either way on that) when it comes to legit high quality wins. They are at least on par with people like Herring, Monson, Mayhem, Heiron imo
Fedor Emilanenko
Georges St. Pierre
Jon Jones
Anderson Silva
Frank Shamrock
Jose Aldo
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Demetrious Johnson
Masakatsu Funaki
Khatib Nurmagomedov
There is no such thing as an unquestionable greatest fighter of all time, imo. We have a few that are the very best, though: Gsp, Fedor, Jones and Anderson…. by a long shot. Whoever you put first and last is a personal choice.
Fedor Emilanenko
Georges St. Pierre
Jon Jones
Anderson Silva
Frank Shamrock
Jose Aldo
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Demetrious Johnson
Masakatsu Funaki
Khatib Nurmagomedov
If you care about failed tests
1. GSP
2. Fedor
3. Aldo
4.DJ
5. Dominick Cruz ( hot take I know but depending on the day you could convince me of a number of different people)
Lol, get off the gas. Those three are unquestionable undisputed GOATs of their divisions. All three have extremely impressive resumes and long title reigns.
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