GOAT debate is worthless.

[Fioretti]

Ali is greater than them though

For other reasons, but that's not what was being focused on there.

2008 - UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, who appeared on this week's edition of Inside MMA and was asked at the end of the program to name the best pound for pound MMA fighter in the world. St. Pierre answered, "Fedor Emelianenko."

The article I linked you to was from late October of 2020 - over a decade later. Just over a year ago. GSP's GOAT is Anderson Silva.

It’s almost as if he didn’t say this:

“Longevity as a champion is what greatness is. Especially in relation to individual sports.

A fighter that was champion for 20 years is clearly a better fighter than a fighter that was champion for 5 years. It's vastly harder to be elite for a longer time period compared to a short time period... for a million reasons. Age, mileage, varying styles of fights, whatever.”
​

Or this:

“The length of your elite status is what makes a GOAT a GOAT. It's what this shit is based around.”​

I never said stats are stupid. I said using singular stats and ignoring others, ignoring context, ignoring other variables is stupid. And it is.



Again, this is simply fantasy. Eras and contextualization are irrelevant in evaluating who the goat is? This simply absurd and nonsensical.

This stupid absolute nonsense again leads to stupid absolute conclusions, like klitschko > ali, or gregorian > duran (and tons of other absurditities). I’m sure you think cy young is by far the best pitcher who ever lived. And again, Jordan doesn’t lead in any totals category. None.

So, yes, 27>25. That doesn’t inherently mean the guy with 27 is the goat. If it did, we wouldn’t have any of these debates. It would be just a statistical comparison. It’s not. 27 isn’t automatically > 22. If it was, no one would consider ali the goat. But alas, many do. SRR only won 12 title fights total in his career. Yet many consider him the goat.

He said the same shit in a different way, and you're aware of it. As I said before, you're being intentionally obtuse and difficult, pretending to be ignorant to what he's saying. You specifically stated that stats were stupid in boxing, and almost no one uses them.... "And stats in boxing are stupid and almost no one uses them." - those are your exact words. Lol, bro, wtf?

Eras and contextualization are irrelevant when first establishing the objective, irrefutable, and cumulative facts. Such as title victories, title defenses, win streaks, and the like. There you go again with the "stupid" shit. Saying that Klitschko had a greater number of title victories than Ali is not stupid, it is fact. You're comparing greatness to determine which is greater overall. You can't ignore objective facts. They are the most important part. You can't argue against them. Are you suggesting we bypass objective and factual data/stats and jump immediately into subjective shit to determine who/what is greater? That, my friend, is what I would call "stupid".

27 IS automatically > 22 - that, too, is a fact. It doesn't mean the guy with 27 whatevers is automatically greater overall than the guy with 22, but it absolutely means they are greater in that area. Title defenses/victories is one stat you can look at for a very simple and easy comparison amongst great champions. It shows how many people they were able to deny taking their crown. The guy with the most denials will have done it greater than his peers. In the case of MMA, it's Jones for title victories. For defenses, Jones, DJ, and Silva are tied.

 

[pankrat]

For other reasons, but that's not what was being focused on there..

For reasons that involve knowing what you are talkin about, instead of just googling stats, sherbra

 

[Fioretti]

For reasons that involve knowing what you are talkin about, instead of just googling stats, sherbra

Stats are highly involved, whether you like it or not. That's essentially all we have to measure greatness. Facts > opinions.

 

[kflo]

Me, and the general consensus in the boxing community mean so, look for pundits rankngs or listen to fellow great boxers. If you dont know though, check stats and pretend in a forum.

I dont think you find many people in basketball forums claiming Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Rushell are the GOATs based on stats, but so is possible for noobs in sherbro

I was agreeing with you bro.

 

[kflo]

For other reasons, but that's not what was being focused on there.

how can you say that’s not what was being focused on? His whole point was that it’s ONLY about the numbers.

The article I linked you to was from late October of 2020 - over a decade later. Just over a year ago. GSP's GOAT is Anderson Silva.



He said the same shit in a different way, and you're aware of it. As I said before, you're being intentionally obtuse and difficult, pretending to be ignorant to what he's saying. You specifically stated that stats were stupid in boxing, and almost no one uses them.... "And stats in boxing are stupid and almost no one uses them." - those are your exact words. Lol, bro, wtf?

Eras and contextualization are irrelevant when first establishing the objective, irrefutable, and cumulative facts. Such as title victories, title defenses, win streaks, and the like. There you go again with the "stupid" shit. Saying that Klitschko had a greater number of title victories than Ali is not stupid, it is fact. You're comparing greatness to determine which is greater overall. You can't ignore objective facts. They are the most important part. You can't argue against them. Are you suggesting we bypass objective and factual data/stats and jump immediately into subjective shit to determine who/what is greater? That, my friend, is what I would call "stupid".

27 IS automatically > 22 - that, too, is a fact. It doesn't mean the guy with 27 whatevers is automatically greater overall than the guy with 22, but it absolutely means they are greater in that area. Title defenses/victories is one stat you can look at for a very simple and easy comparison amongst great champions. It shows how many people they were able to deny taking their crown. The guy with the most denials will have done it greater than his peers. In the case of MMA, it's Jones for title victories. For defenses, Jones, DJ, and Silva are tied.

Dude. His point was that singular stats were the ONLY factor in determining the goat.

And again, just comparing stats while ignoring era does NOT mean x “greater than” y automatically. Is winning 30 games as a pitcher in 2022 lesser than winning 32 games as a pitcher in 1890? The answer is obviously no. The guy who won 32 games was NOT “greater” in that area.

Again, you’re completely ignoring that HIS point was that the GOAT is ONLY based on a single stat (or 2 stats, time + #). And you are attacking me for calling that out. And NOT calling him out for implying SRR is not an arguable goat, or that ali can’t be considered > klitschko or Louis. That it’s simply automatic.

Again, what is the “stat” that makes SRR the goat?

Obviously RECORDS matter in combat sports. Accomplishments matter. This is the point. It ALL matters. Strength of schedule, dominant performances, stoppages, era adjusted. Even the fuckin eye test matters. Guys used to fight 100+ fights, and guys almost never reach that total today. That doesn’t mean guys today can’t attain higher status than guys who won 2-3 times more fights, just like pitchers don’t need to win 511 games to surpass cy young.

This should all be obvious. My point has been obvious. Yet YOU are the one being intentionally difficult. Unless of course you actually believe that the ONLY thing that matters is “wins while you are the top fighter” or some stupid shit like that…..do you believe that? If not, you are on my side and not his. You’re just refusing to acknowledge it for whatever reason.

 

[kflo]

2008 - UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, who appeared on this week's edition of Inside MMA and was asked at the end of the program to name the best pound for pound MMA fighter in the world. St. Pierre answered, "Fedor Emelianenko."

It’s really weird that in 2008 he didn’t say anderson silva or jon jones or Jose aldo or khabib……

 

[BangBang]

There is no greatest of all time,just the fighter you happen to like the most,at any given time.

All these fighters fought in different eras,weight classes,which presented their own set of benefits and serious challenges.

Obviously the matchmaking system is much looser in the past,and the stance towards PED's. But these men would fight twice,sometimes three times as much as the average fighter now..for alot less pay. Alot more short notice fights,alot more last min opponent changes. Sometimes you didnt even know what the full card was until you watched it. Alot less ways to study your opponents because footage on them would be difficult,and sometimes impossible to obtain. Pride didnt even have public weigh ins!

Those people with their noses up in the air about how much better (or more talented the fighters are) it is now,ought to think about that.

Now things are presented alot clearer,with a rankings system,that helps to keep things competitive and more difficult (for some) to make it to the top. Would todays stars have an easier time in the wilder more loose way the sport was run 20 yrs ago? Or would the hardened warriors who didnt mind throwin hands 6 times a year,dominate the current crop of guys we have,and make them look like sissies?

There's no way to tell. So shut up.

You could say Khabib was the best LW of his era,and that BJ was the best in his. Thats about as far as you can really go.

It's just nice to debate these things when you're a fan of the sport, just like making top ten lists and debating these with your mates in the pub or whatever.

Stop complaining you gigantic wuss!

 

[HHJ]

It's just nice to debate these things when you're a fan of the sport, just like making top ten lists and debating these with your mates in the pub or whatever.

Stop complaining you gigantic wuss!

.......


No those days are done. Its only about payouts and triller these days.

 

[HHJ]

A Sherdogger making sense?

Now this is something you don’t see every day.

 

[Fioretti]

how can you say that’s not what was being focused on? His whole point was that it’s ONLY about the numbers.


Dude. His point was that singular stats were the ONLY factor in determining the goat.

And again, just comparing stats while ignoring era does NOT mean x “greater than” y automatically. Is winning 30 games as a pitcher in 2022 lesser than winning 32 games as a pitcher in 1890? The answer is obviously no. The guy who won 32 games was NOT “greater” in that area.

Again, you’re completely ignoring that HIS point was that the GOAT is ONLY based on a single stat (or 2 stats, time + #). And you are attacking me for calling that out. And NOT calling him out for implying SRR is not an arguable goat, or that ali can’t be considered > klitschko or Louis. That it’s simply automatic.

Again, what is the “stat” that makes SRR the goat?

Obviously RECORDS matter in combat sports. Accomplishments matter. This is the point. It ALL matters. Strength of schedule, dominant performances, stoppages, era adjusted. Even the fuckin eye test matters. Guys used to fight 100+ fights, and guys almost never reach that total today. That doesn’t mean guys today can’t attain higher status than guys who won 2-3 times more fights, just like pitchers don’t need to win 511 games to surpass cy young.

This should all be obvious. My point has been obvious. Yet YOU are the one being intentionally difficult. Unless of course you actually believe that the ONLY thing that matters is “wins while you are the top fighter” or some stupid shit like that…..do you believe that? If not, you are on my side and not his. You’re just refusing to acknowledge it for whatever reason.

I agree with parts from both sides. The stats (irrefutable objective data) must come first. That's where you start to fall off. 27 is always greater than 22. After the numbers are established, it gets into more subjective material, and that's where the fuckery starts. Now you have to justify why someone with lower numbers can be considered greater. The greater numbers have already established a greater accomplishment, and a higher degree of greatness.

He has a very valid point in saying that title wins, defenses, and longevity at the top is a built-in measurement. It is, and it's undeniable fact, not opinion. The responsibility falls to the opposing side to establish measurements to counter, match, or exceed the irrefutable numbers. The trouble, as I stated earlier as fuckery, comes when opinions are used in attempts to trump facts.

Kind of like that never ending debate on Silva's win over Okami vs GSP's win over Fitch. You'll have 3x as many people parroting Fitch was a better win, but the stats show otherwise. He wasn't. Fuckery.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Who was that athlete?

See? The fact you even have to ask shows how some legends get remembered and some don’t.

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/features/00016499.html

 

[Fioretti]

2008 - UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, who appeared on this week's edition of Inside MMA and was asked at the end of the program to name the best pound for pound MMA fighter in the world. St. Pierre answered, "Fedor Emelianenko."

I just noticed that's GSP saying Fedor was p4p #1, not GOAT, which was true back in 2008. Again, the article I linked was from Oct 2020, and it was about the GOAT, who GSP said was Anderson Silva.

Spider bless.

 

[BFoe]

I just noticed that's GSP saying Fedor was p4p #1, not GOAT, which was true back in 2008. Again, the article I linked was from Oct 2020, and it was about the GOAT, who GSP said was Anderson Silva.

Spider bless.

Naw, looks like we both lost out. January 2021: “…The GOAT for me is Royce Gracie.”—GSP.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

@HHJ is already red hot, yall better stop turning this into a GOAT debate thread before some shit goes down

 

[kflo]

I agree with parts from both sides. The stats (irrefutable objective data) must come first. That's where you start to fall off. 27 is always greater than 22. After the numbers are established, it gets into more subjective material, and that's where the fuckery starts. Now you have to justify why someone with lower numbers can be considered greater. The greater numbers have already established a greater accomplishment, and a higher degree of greatness.

He has a very valid point in saying that title wins, defenses, and longevity at the top is a built-in measurement. It is, and it's undeniable fact, not opinion. The responsibility falls to the opposing side to establish measurements to counter, match, or exceed the irrefutable numbers. The trouble, as I stated earlier as fuckery, comes when opinions are used in attempts to trump facts.

Kind of like that never ending debate on Silva's win over Okami vs GSP's win over Fitch. You'll have 3x as many people parroting Fitch was a better win, but the stats show otherwise. He wasn't. Fuckery.

27 is more than 22. It isn’t inherently a greater accomplishment or higher degree of greatness. I guess we will just disagree there. Greater or greatness are inherently subjective terms. It is objectively more. Not greater or higher greatness. Just like 32 pitching wins in 1890 isn’t inherently greater than 30 wins in 2022. It’s more.

He’s not saying they are built in measurements. He’s saying it’s the ONLY criteria. Are you not getting that? They are INPUTS into the equation. Again, with quality of competition, dominance, era adjustments, losses, eye test, performances, etc. Again, SRR has TWELVE title wins. He’s almost universally acknowledged as the p4p goat. Ali is probably the consensus hw goat. They don’t have a statistical argument based on the criteria he’s trying to put forward as the only criteria.

 

[BFoe]

@HHJ is already red hot, yall better stop turning this into a GOAT debate thread before some shit goes down

It’s all part of his master plan. @HHJ knows full well that Fedor is the undisputed, scientifically proven GOAT. This thread was just a sneaky way to get everyone together in one place to finally hash this out and accept the truth of Fedor’s GOATness.

@HHJ playing 4D chess with these peeps.

 

[Dirty Frank]

It's still real to me dammit!!!!





Seriously, all fair points. Still a fun, if oftentimes infuriating, point of discussion, though.
You've obviously stepped up to a higher plane, H. I remember you being a "Fedor supremacist."
Well done.

 

[Bigmoney4166]

Duh

 

[BangBang]

@HHJ is already red hot, yall better stop turning this into a GOAT debate thread before some shit goes down

Reggie? Or Ronnie? I can never remember which ones which!

Legend - worth a watch for anyone who hasn't seen it.

 

[HHJ]

It’s all part of his master plan. @HHJ knows full well that Fedor is the undisputed, scientifically proven GOAT. This thread was just a sneaky way to get everyone together in one place to finally hash this out and accept the truth of Fedor’s GOATness.

@HHJ playing 4D chess with these peeps.