Glutamine Questions

[my big toe]

I think Glutamine has to be the most controversial of all the supps., so people love it and some hate it. I stopped using it and didn't notice any difference. One thing that is well established is that it is good for cells of your stomach lining. Whether, it gets absorbed into your blood stream and muscle cells, and actually aids in strength gains I think is still debateable. As Madmick says, the Peptides are a newer form that is supposedly easier to absorb.

 

[Gsoares2***]

i dont think it was ever said to add strength gains to your system... It helps with recovery and doesnt alow the muscles to break them selves down or something like that.

 

[my big toe]

i dont think it was ever said to add strength gains to your system... It helps with recovery and doesnt alow the muscles to break them selves down or something like that.

Both, the claims are that it aids in preventing catabolism and in protein synthesis. Also, that it stimulates increases in growth hormone.

edited for clarity.

 

[Aaron Howard]

i dont think it was ever said to add strength gains to your system... It helps with recovery and doesnt alow the muscles to break them selves down or something like that.

Exactly..."or something like that."

Source?

 

[Chad Hamilton]

Look...It's not gonna make you big.
The list of uses is extremely long.
It's marketed towards fitness and bodybuilding as a recovery agent seeing as how it's the most abundant amino in the body.

My experience has been that most consumers, bodybuilders and the masses, purchase glutamine for:
1. Immune system function
2. gastro-esophagal and gastro-intestinal repair.
3. brain function.

I like to mix 5g glutamine with 5g powdered GABA in a little warm water before bed.

 

[my big toe]

Here's the best writeup I've seen on it, by David Tolsen, and one of the few that actually includes sources. Although he works for a supp. company, he actually is pretty objective with this, and in fact disputes most of the claims. Here's the punchline, if you don't want to read the whole thing (link at the bottom):

A final contention made by glutamine advocates is that it increases protein synthesis. This is based primarily on in vitro experiments, which have found that glutamine stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits protein breakdown [14]. However, in vivo, it appears that supplemental L-glutamine does not affect protein synthesis or increase glutamine levels in muscle tissue in healthy humans, even after IV administration [14, 17]. Increased glutamine availability does increase glutamine flux in muscle tissue (i.e., both uptake and outflow are increased but tissue levels are not changed), but this may limit transport mechanisms for other amino acids [17]. These studies do not rule out the potential for a small effect on protein synthesis of supplemental L-glutamine combined with an exercise program, but do indicate that it is not likely to make a significant difference.

Finally, there are a number of facts that can make glutamine supplementation less appealing. To maintain continually elevated levels of glutamine, one would have to supplement at least every two hours [16]. Glutamine administration also inhibits de novo synthesis of the amino acid in humans, which may make long-term supplementation less effective [20]. In healthy individuals, supplemental glutamine may decrease glutathione levels in some tissues by causing negative feedback [10]. Also, glutamine decreases vascular nitric oxide (NO) production [4]. There is also some concern that the metabolic by-products of glutamine may be toxic in large amounts [18]. However, there have been few reports of adverse events in clinical trials, even with large amounts of glutamine [1, 18].

In conclusion, few studies have demonstrated any sort of conclusive benefit from L-glutamine supplementation in athletes, although the existing evidence does support a small benefit. The most promising effect is a reduced incidence of infection after exhausting exercise, and in this case 5-10 g preworkout and/or postworkout may be effective. It may be especially useful during times of overtraining or high stress, such as on a diet, but this is only in theory. There is little evidence for a direct anabolic or performance enhancing effect of glutamine.

http://www.bulknutrition.com/i42_Glutamine.html

 

[Rjkd12]

Wonderful post my big toe, I think that one post is 5 times more helpful than all the others combined.

I posted an article about supplelementation of many things, one of them being glutamine and it was shown to have no effect. In searching for it I found this,

Current data, including results for several well-controlled studies, indicated that supplementation with arginine, ornithine, or lysine, either separately or in combination, does not enhance the effect of exercise stimulation on either hGH or various measures of muscular strength or power in experienced weightlifters. Plasma levels of BCAA and tryptophan may play important roles in the cause of central fatigue during exercise, but the effects of BCAA or tryptophan supplementation do not seem to be effective ergogenics for endurance exercise performance, particularly when compared with carbohydrate supplementation, a more natural choice. Although glutamine supplementation may increase plasma glutamine levels, its effect on enhancement of the immune system and prevention of adverse effects of the overtraining syndrome are equivocal. Glycine, a precursor for creatine, does not seem to possess the ergogenic potential of creatine supplementation.

I included a few other amino acids in there just for information. I have said this before, but data seems to show that on good diet supplementation of certain amino acids do not help, since you are getting tons of amino acids in regular food.

From the same article: "no data support the finding that oral supplementation with amino acids, in contrast to dietary protein, as the source of amino acids is more effective."

Here is the abstract,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10410846&query_hl=3

 

[Rjkd12]

The list of uses is extremely long.
It's marketed towards fitness and bodybuilding as a recovery agent seeing as how it's the most abundant amino in the body.

Statements like these really bug the hell out of me. Who cares how much it is used for? Your muscles are composed meat, meat IS muscles. Does eating tons of red meat increase muslce mass? Same idea, does eating actin and myosin increase the amounts of actin and myosin? No.

Fats are used for TONS of things, all cell membrains, signal transduction, skin/hair/joint integrity. Does supplementing with a glass of olive oil or 3 big macks make sure you will have wonderful skin and no arthritis? No.

Vitamin A/beta carotein is good for the eyes, and is contained in carrots. Do people who depend on eyesight eat tons of carrots? No, only weirdo's who don't know how to rationalize and read that Vit A is good for eyes, carrots have Vit A, so I eat carrots and have super eyes.

Just because something is used in the body for a purpose does not mean injesting that same substance will increase shit.

Sheesh, i'm suprised nobody has mentioned eating animal cocks or testicles to increase their manhood.

 

[Chad Hamilton]

Statements like these really bug the hell out of me. Who cares how much it is used for? Your muscles are composed meat, meat IS muscles. Does eating tons of red meat increase muslce mass? Same idea, does eating actin and myosin increase the amounts of actin and myosin? No.

Fats are used for TONS of things, all cell membrains, signal transduction, skin/hair/joint integrity. Does supplementing with a glass of olive oil or 3 big macks make sure you will have wonderful skin and no arthritis? No.

Vitamin A/beta carotein is good for the eyes, and is contained in carrots. Do people who depend on eyesight eat tons of carrots? No, only weirdo's who don't know how to rationalize and read that Vit A is good for eyes, carrots have Vit A, so I eat carrots and have super eyes.

Just because something is used in the body for a purpose does not mean injesting that same substance will increase shit.

Sheesh, i'm suprised nobody has mentioned eating animal cocks or testicles to increase their manhood.

I don't care what bugs the hell out of you.

And if they ground up some animal cocks and testicles...I'd take it with my glutamine.

 

[Deleted member 56619]

I didnt think the point of glutamine was to make you see gains? I thought it was to help your muscle recover and make you less sore. Can someone clear this up for me, i have started lifting a training pretty hard and i am usualy very sore. If i take glutamine should it help me be less sore so i can train harder? Thanks for the help.

 

[Chad Hamilton]

yes you'll be less sore.
take the glutamine.

 

[Aaron Howard]

no you won't be any less sore
don't take the glutamine


(See how that works? This is why actual research is relevant)

 

[Sinister]

This coming from someone who posted Zero research of his own in this thread. Back your own statements with substance, otherwise they equate to wasted space and arguing.

 

[Aaron Howard]

Something minor and straightforward from pubmed:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11822473&dopt=Abstract

Short-term study:http://www.jssm.org/vol2/n4/7/v2n4-7.htm


Some stuff on my computer:

Oxidation of glutamine by the splanchnic bed in humans.

Haisch M, Fukagawa NK, Matthews DE.

Departments of Medicine and Chemistry, University of Vermont, Burlington, Vermont 05405, USA.

[1,2-(13)C(2)]glutamine and [ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine were infused for 7 h into five postabsorptive healthy subjects on two occasions. On one occasion, the tracers were infused intravenously for 3.5 h and then by a nasogastric tube for 3.5 h. The order of infusion was reversed on the other occasion. From the plasma tracer enrichment measurements at plateau during the intravenous and nasogastric infusion periods, we determined that 27 +/- 2% of the enterally delivered phenylalanine and 64 +/- 2% of the glutamine were removed on the first pass by the splanchnic bed. Glutamine flux was 303 +/- 8 micromol. kg(-1). h(-1). Of the enterally delivered [(13)C]glutamine tracer, 73 +/- 2% was recovered as exhaled CO(2) compared with 58 +/- 1% of the intravenously infused tracer. The fraction of the enterally delivered tracer that was oxidized specifically on the first pass by the splanchnic bed was 53 +/- 2%, comprising 83% of the total tracer extracted. From the appearance of (13)C in plasma glucose, we estimated that 7 and 10% of the intravenously and nasogastrically infused glutamine tracers, respectively, were converted to glucose. The results for glutamine flux and first-pass extraction were similar to our previously reported values when a [2-(15)N]glutamine tracer [Matthews DE, Morano MA, and Campbell RG, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 264: E848-E854, 1993] was used.e results of [(13)C]glutamine tracer disposal demonstrate that the major fate of enteral glutamine extraction is for oxidation and that only a minor portion is used for gluconeogenesis.


This showed 83% getting completey destroyed and the remaining being used for gluconeogenesis (converted to glucose). Expensive glucose eh?


Even the industry recognizes the poor absortion of glutamine so they now market peptides at increasing absortion, so here's a study on that too.

Free and protein-bound glutamine have identical splanchnic extraction in healthy human volunteers.

Boza JJ, Dangin M, Moennoz D, Montigon F, Vuichoud J, Jarret A, Pouteau E, Gremaud G, Oguey-Araymon S, Courtois D, Woupeyi A, Finot PA, Ballevre O.

Nestle Research Center, Vers-Chez-Les-Blanc, 1000 Lausanne 26, Switzerland.

The objectives of the present study were to determine the splanchnic extraction of glutamine after ingestion of glutamine-rich protein ((15)N-labeled oat proteins) and to compare it with that of free glutamine and to determine de novo glutamine synthesis before and after glutamine consumption. Eight healthy adults were infused intravenously in the postabsorptive state with L-[1-(13)C]glutamine (3 micromol x kg(-1) x h(-1)) and L-[1-(13)C]lysine (1.5 micromol x kg(-1) x h(-1)) for 8 h. Four hours after the beginning of the infusion, subjects consumed (every 20 min) a liquid formula providing either 2.5 g of protein from (15)N-labeled oat proteins or a mixture of free amino acids that mimicked the oat-amino acid profile and contained L-[2,5-(15)N(2)]glutamine and L-[2-(15)N]lysine. Splanchnic extraction of glutamine reached 62.5 +/- 5.0% and 66.7 +/- 3.9% after administration of (15)N-labeled oat proteins and the mixture of free amino acids, respectively. Lysine splanchnic extraction was also not different (40.9 +/- 11.9% and 34.9 +/- 10.6% for (15)N-labeled oat proteins and free amino acids, respectively). The main conclusion of the present study is that glutamine is equally bioavailable when given enterally as a free amino acid and when protein bound. Therefore, and taking into consideration the drawbacks of free glutamine supplementation of ready-to-use formulas for enteral nutrition, protein sources naturally rich in this amino acid are the best option for providing stable glutamine.




Old T-Mag article from David Barr:
Destroying the Dogma 1
Part 2


Also see Cynober LA et al. Metabolic & Therapeutic Aspects of Amino Acids in Clinical Nutrition. CRC Press, 2003

As someone already mentioned, in vitro != in vivo.

 

[Madmick]

I disagree with you on Glutamine, Aaron. I appreciate your studies. 1000018428


Of the studies you've quoted, the only one that's methods I feel are relevant are The Journal of Sports Medicine, and that study showed a 0.04% better retention in lean mass (over a mere 12 day period) for the glutamine takers versus the placebo group. This may not seem like much, but in a person of my size, this equals 3/4 pound more lean mass retained in less than two weeks. Why the hell wouldn't I want that?

Not only that, but as the researchers even conceded, this was only a 12 day study: the risks of catabolic effects become greater as an athlete maintains a hypocaloric diet over a longer period of time (risking ketosis if he maintains this too long).

In other words, I disagree with their conclusion.

As for the PubMed study, the placebo group took a maltodextrin formula during their workout (while the glutamine group received no maltodextrin in their formula). This bewilders me. Too many studies to list have demonstrated that carbohydrate formulas (either glucose-electrolyte, dextrose, or maltodextrin) taken during resistance training increase the number of repetitions performed with the same load by those subjects taking the carbohydrate formula over those not taking it. So this group likely would have been at an advantage in achieving greater volume in their workouts, leading to greater overall strength.

The study you pasted only concluded that taking glutamine as an isolated amino acid is equally absorbable as taking it in protein chains. I didn't see anywhere in this thread the claim that glutamine taken by itself is more readily available.

The reason I supplement with glutamine is that it may optimize recovery in four ways: 1) by sparing protein, 2) stimulating the formation of glycogen, 3) "protecting" immunity, and 4) enhancing protein synthesis. For all the studies posted so far, I have seen in the past just as many with the opposite conclusion; thus the reason glutamine is still considered a "controversial" supplement.

What is not in contention is the physiological discovery that glutamine is released into the bloodstream during strenuous exercise, and that muscle glutamine has been found depleted by as much as 34% following intense exercise in studies.

Is there glutamine in my whey? Sure. Is my whey composed of 34% glutamine? No.

Glutamine is cheap as hell. $30 for 1kg. I already take 55g of protein in my post workout shake, so I only supplement with 5g post-workout, not 10g, and I only take it on the days I workout, since those are the times my muscles are depleted (no longer at night with my casein...RJKD got me on the cottage cheese train, anyway). I workout 4-5 days a week. So a $30 canister lasts me 40-50 weeks. That's roughly a year. You can spare even more cash by only taking it during tapering or cutting phases (since that's when catabolism is most likely).

I'm not at all reserved about shelling out $30 a year to ensure probably a greater than 0.4% retention of my lean mass.

 

[Aaron Howard]

The Journal of Sports Medicine, and that study showed a 0.04% better retention in lean mass (over a mere 12 day period) for the glutamine takers versus the placebo group. This may not seem like much, but in a person of my size, this equals 3/4 pound more lean mass retained in less than two weeks.

Maybe my math is wrong or I'm missing something. How did you figure this?

The reason I supplement with glutamine is that it may optimize recovery in four ways: 1) by sparing protein, 2) stimulating the formation of glycogen, 3) "protecting" immunity, and 4) enhancing protein synthesis. For all the studies posted so far, I have seen in the past just as many with the opposite conclusion; thus the reason glutamine is still considered a "controversial" supplement.

Mind posting studies?

What is not in contention is the physiological discovery that glutamine is released into the bloodstream during strenuous exercise, and that muscle glutamine has been found depleted by as much as 34% following intense exercise in studies.

Link to studies please?

Is there glutamine in my whey? Sure. Is my whey composed of 34% glutamine? No.

You can spare even more cash by only taking it during tapering or cutting phases (since that's when catabolism is most likely).

Indeed this is the only time which it MAY be helpful. Most guppies take it because "all teh h4rdc0re b0dybuild3rs take it."

I'm not at all reserved about shelling out $30 a year to ensure probably a greater than 0.4% retention of my lean mass.

I'm very reserved about shelling out any money for any gains when I can shell out less for something else and expect better gains.

 

[Rjkd12]

I don't care what bugs the hell out of you.

And if they ground up some animal cocks and testicles...I'd take it with my glutamine.

Haha, great. Supplement companies love people like you. You make me want to market my own drink containing special actin and myosin to make you huge. I'll just grind up a few steaks and add the most abudant amino acid in muscles.. glutamine.

By the way, I'm a lawyer and a distant relative of yours just passed away and left you 5 million for inheritance. I just need 2 grand to pay some inital fees and I"ll get you your 5 mil. Send only cash.

 

[Chad Hamilton]

a lawyer huh?

i'm an athlete, a stud athlete at that.

you son, belong in the nursery with all the other kiddo's .

 

[Madmick]

Dang, why'd Aaron get banned? I appreciated his insistence on backing claims with studies.

Maybe my math is wrong or I'm missing something. How did you
figure this?

I figured it using the table from your study. Considering my own mass is 242 pounds with 9% bodyfat, and accounting for bone mass (~10-11 pounds), my lean mass is about 211 pounds. Simply multiply that to 0.4% (it's .004, so maybe this is where you got confused, because I wrote 0.04% earlier when it should be written 0.4%). That's more than 3/4 pound of muscle mass retained in a mere 12-day period.

Mind posting studies?

Link to studies please?

Sorry, I don't have links to studies on this one. I got my information on glutamine from a book. If you buy "Sports Supplements" from Jose Antonio, he lists all the studies he references in the back. I believe he also includes them in "Supplements for Strength/Power Athletes" and "Supplements for Endurance Athletes". Since it's not annotated a la a doctoral thesis, it's impossible for me to know which studies match which claims. These are all older studies, too, all done in 2002 or earlier.

Is there glutamine in my whey? Sure. Is my whey composed of 34% glutamine? No.

I don't have a study for this either, it was in my physiology textbook.

 

[supersudo]

i got a glutamine question... for the ppl who use glutamine powders.. how does it taste? i got glutamine powder and it reminds me of powder on powdered donuts.. i took a tiny lick of it off my teaspoon and it had a slight sweet taste to it.. just like powdered sugar.. the consistency is similar as well..

is this normal? or am i just imagining things?