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Giving away the back

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Chris Champion, Dec 5, 2005.

  1. Chris Champion

    Chris Champion Purple Belt

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    So, I've been watching Frank Shammy's advanced submission instructionals recently and he's got one part talking about the advantages of giving away your back. He says that you can try for my techniques than your opponent - IE Shoulders locks, ankle locks, heel hooks etc V your standard RNC.

    So, tonight, I rolled and purposely gave away my back... My instructor wasn't too pleased and started yelling, but I managed to roll through and eventually got a heel hook.

    What's your opinion on it? Never give it away or give it away?
     
  2. RedmanWrestler

    RedmanWrestler Purple Belt

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    hmmm i guess you could try it in practise but i wouldn't recommend it in competition until you really have it mastered and that could take a while. I've purposely given up me back standing but never on the ground, on the feet usually i try the armbar sakuraba pulled off against Renzo. Someone with a good RNC could get you when you tryin for your submissions or escapes.
     
  3. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    I wouldn't give it up in MMA. In BJJ, if you can get away with it, do it.
     
  4. triso

    triso Green Belt

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    I just can't see giving my opponent my back as a good thing.

    I know there are good turtle players, and there are some subs from there, but it's very risky.
     
  5. DMcKayBJJ

    DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    I think that purposely giving up your back, unless you really know what you're doing and depending on your opponent, is probably never really recommended.

    That said, however, I think one of the most important things for a noob to get over is that tremendous desperation and panic that occurs when someone takes your back. When I first started, I heard so much about how the rear mount was the most dominant position, that I'd freak whenever someone got my back.

    Now, I've gotten more comfortable with someone taking my back, at least comfortable enough to stay calm and work on defense and an escape. You hear so much about "Don't EVER give up your back!" that it might seem like sure defeat when it's taken...but that's not necessarily true. I'm not just talking about turtle position, but full rear mount. Staying calm, understanding how to improve your position, fighting smart and with technique, and systematically breaking down your opponent's advantages and turning them around...I think that's what BJJ is all about anyway.

    In MMA, getting rear-mounted is a very very bad thing. But whether it's MMA or BJJ, the only thing worse than getting rear-mounted is getting rear-mounted and PANICKING.
     
  6. Brendon Katz

    Brendon Katz Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    i occasionally give up my back if i cant escape a full mount , sometimes even get lucky and get a kneebar
     
  7. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    Actually, getting rear-mounted in MMA isn't necessarily the worst, so long as you aren't pinned flat. I recall a Pride (Bushido?) earlier this year where a Japanese fighter spent most of the fight with a jiujitsu guy on his back (somebody help me out here with the names?). In the UFC, Frank Trigg laster longer with Georges St Pierre on his back than he would have in any other position. Which isn't to say you have a lot of chance of winning a fight with them on your back but it can be pretty good for a stalling tactic (and hunting for a surprise sub).
     
  8. Kawlinz

    Kawlinz How do I change my Custom User Title?

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    I don't see all the fuss about giving your back in MMA. They can't hit the back of your head, your neck, or your spine, or your kidneys is UFC, so the damage that they can do with strikes is minimal, and ther eis no gi to use for chokes, so the most common option is hooks and RNC.... if you actually train to defend these well, you should be OK, because most people, it seems, don't train in this position nearly enough, because they figure that since they've got your back, they'll win.

    Remember when people thought full mount was pretty much game over in MMA? same deal, people are getting used to the back mount.
     
  9. Enron Exec.

    Enron Exec. Guest

    This is my game. I have people in my gaurd and when they finally try to pass I give my back and never let them get the hooks. This is where I reposition. It works. I hardly ever get choked. You will get armbarred alot from better guys but eventually you will learn when to tuck your arm in and when yo pull out
     
  10. DirectDrive

    DirectDrive Black Belt

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    a lot of people belly down to "avoid" the pass in grapling tourneys.
    royler did that against sudo and got KTFOed when he tried to stand up.
     
  11. thecas

    thecas Blue Belt

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    Good, u watched the Royler fight too. Can explain to me why royler appear to be willing to get mounted?[Only dif was he could hold only Sudo]
     
  12. Bama Zulu

    Bama Zulu Blue Belt

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    Unless you are Sak with crazy ass kimura's from out of nowhere then I wouldn't recommend it..

    Kawlinz makes a good point, look at David Louiseau (sp?) vs. Evan Tanner, Evan Tanner had his back multiple times throughout one round and despite Joe Rogan's expert comments David L. defended extremely well and eventually got out and brutalized him with elbows.
     
  13. LCDforMe

    LCDforMe Purple Belt

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    I tried this today and got choked out like 3 or 4 times.
     
  14. migo**

    migo** Guest

    I'll give my back to less experienced guys, it gives me an opportunity to work defenses more.
     
  15. Kawlinz

    Kawlinz How do I change my Custom User Title?

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    Yup, when I saw Crow against Tanner, I was wondering what Rogan was talking about, Louiseau was never in any danger whatsoever.

    I probably wouldn't give my back in Pride so easily tho, people give headkicks there.
     
  16. Foolkiller

    Foolkiller You have meddled with the primal forces of nature!

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    Depends how comfortable you are protecting your neck from the back. I give my back sometimes because I feel comfortable defending chokes and like to look for leg locks, umaplatas and sweeps. I actually can't think of the last time I got caught by a RNC. I've also picked up a few things from Eduardo Telles that I hope will improve my defense from attacks. However in MMA you should never give anyone your back ever, they can still boot your ribs in.
     
  17. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    I can understand doing it if someone has a great mount that you are having trouble escaping, but I would not do it often.
     
  18. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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    im assuming you guys are talking about turtling up, not giving the back as in "hooks in." i dont know what bjj/sub grappling/mma you guys are watching...but there were more rnc's than you can count on both hands in adcc this past year, and those are high level guys. there is still about 1 rnc in every other ufc and if you get turned face down and stretched out, you're still in a very dangerous position.
     
  19. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    yeah giving up the hooks is bad news. You have to use one hand to pull at least one hook out and when that happens the opponent is attacking your neck with both of his.

    If you can help it try not to let him get the hooks in.
     
  20. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    Yeah, when I think of giving away the back, I'm thinking Sakuraba-ish, not with hooks in.

    Sakuraba always has a limb tied up when he gives an opponent his back. Either a leg or an arm. Usually he gets a kimura hold going and just never lets go. So for you guys saying you're trying giving up your back and you keep getting submitted, try controlling an arm in kimura, from whatever angle you can. If someone has your back (not with hooks in) and has an arm under your arm pit, you've got a clean kimura positioning situation. Grab his wrist with one hand and wrap the arm with the other: figure 4 / kimura. Start trying to roll him off of you to the side you have the "kimura" on by dropping that shoulder. etc. Just don't let go of that arm.
     

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