E
Enron Exec.
Guest
against the experieced guys you gotta watch for the Armbar from the back
Giving away the back
- Thread starter Chris Champion
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stephensharp
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There's a couple guys that like to work this at my school, and it's either so that they won't panic when someone gets the back and they work escapes, or so they can look at other options like attacks.
There's always something to be said about giving up some of the "taboos" of BJJ, if only to learn to defend from a position you don't often find yourself in (at least not for long...), and there's always even more to learning something you may never have utilized.
Not saying you're going to develop a mean "rear mounted with the hooks in" game and discard your guard altogether or anything, but maybe you'll be able to develop a good defensive/offensive turtle if you find you're geared toward it. I often look for half guard from the bottom, rather than guard, because I really am buying into the idea that there's a lot more to be done from there... Get good, and you're halfway to the back or a sub, rather than halfway to being passed.
That said, your instructor might be getitng fired up because he doesn't want you looking at branching out and all that until you've nailed the basics. I know you only started this year, so maybe he wants you to wait on experimenting until you're a little further along.
Then you can pull that awesome "wooden tooth face crank" you've kept in the back of your head.
There's always something to be said about giving up some of the "taboos" of BJJ, if only to learn to defend from a position you don't often find yourself in (at least not for long...), and there's always even more to learning something you may never have utilized.
Not saying you're going to develop a mean "rear mounted with the hooks in" game and discard your guard altogether or anything, but maybe you'll be able to develop a good defensive/offensive turtle if you find you're geared toward it. I often look for half guard from the bottom, rather than guard, because I really am buying into the idea that there's a lot more to be done from there... Get good, and you're halfway to the back or a sub, rather than halfway to being passed.
That said, your instructor might be getitng fired up because he doesn't want you looking at branching out and all that until you've nailed the basics. I know you only started this year, so maybe he wants you to wait on experimenting until you're a little further along.
Then you can pull that awesome "wooden tooth face crank" you've kept in the back of your head.
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blanko
Guest
yea sak used to have a good turtle untill PRIDE started allowing attacks to the head (via knees, soccer kicks) when turtled and look what happened to him. Yes there are BJJ champions (i.e Telles from TT jiu jitsu) that give up their backs and fight from there. However, even TT do teach their students to fight from the turtle.
When you meet someone really good at controlling the back, you will realize how dumb it is to give it. No strikes are allowed to the back of the head for safety reasons, but realistically it's worse than mount. In a fight you can get stomped if you turtle. If they have hooks they can elbow your spine. You can't even see what they are doing. At least in mount you can try to escape a bit. In MMA the moves are limited, but I would still say it's worse.
Why do you think in BJJ tournaments you get points if you roll someone from mount to backmount. You don't get points the other way around.
Why do you think in BJJ tournaments you get points if you roll someone from mount to backmount. You don't get points the other way around.
The only big problem with the theory is that some people are just wicked in getting the hooks in and finishing with RNC (Marcelo Garcia style). It's hard to know who these people are in tournaments. And if that is "your game" in practice then surely you will try to carry over into tournaments.
Also, there are TONS of ways to finish from the back other than RNC. I totally disagree with F. Shamrock. Personally, my arms/legs size/length make it so that i'm not really good in finishing with RNC so for the last year or so i've made it my mission to determine ever option i could find besides RNC and still maintain back control. As a matter of fact, now i briefly look for RNC when getting the back but if i don't see it available right away i immediatly transition into one of about ten options i have from there....and the reason i think these are better is b/c nobody see's them coming at all and can't plan their defenses.
Also, there are many variations of the RNC in terms of the actual grip that can make it a higher percentage sub. I know of about 4 that i use that are quicker and just as effective as the lion killer hold.
Also, there are TONS of ways to finish from the back other than RNC. I totally disagree with F. Shamrock. Personally, my arms/legs size/length make it so that i'm not really good in finishing with RNC so for the last year or so i've made it my mission to determine ever option i could find besides RNC and still maintain back control. As a matter of fact, now i briefly look for RNC when getting the back but if i don't see it available right away i immediatly transition into one of about ten options i have from there....and the reason i think these are better is b/c nobody see's them coming at all and can't plan their defenses.
Also, there are many variations of the RNC in terms of the actual grip that can make it a higher percentage sub. I know of about 4 that i use that are quicker and just as effective as the lion killer hold.
I never go to my back if the other has full mount, however if they've progressed to side control and are looking to establish a full mount, I'll roll and escape through the back door. I also like to roll around if I get taken down, making it harder to maintain top position. I'm still working on a lot of it and I'm really developing my leverage, timing, and set ups for those scrambling escapes, but they're good if you've got great cardio and with wrestling season begining, my cardio is going sky high once more.
What's the ten options you have from the rear mount! I'm fairly new to BJJ, my RNC pretty good as I've been taught it by Mark Liamon. My arm bar stinks from back control. Please list your other attacks.
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Foolkiller
You have meddled with the primal forces of nature!
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1.Single leg calf crank
2. Spine lock
3. Full Nelson
4. Crucifix style double armbar
5. Reverse Omoplata
6. Crucifix style double armbar with neck crank
7. Twister
8. Gable grip RNC
9. Rolling kneebar
10. Rolling toehold
Not many of these are high percentage moves which is why most just say hold on and wait to get the RNC.
2. Spine lock
3. Full Nelson
4. Crucifix style double armbar
5. Reverse Omoplata
6. Crucifix style double armbar with neck crank
7. Twister
8. Gable grip RNC
9. Rolling kneebar
10. Rolling toehold
Not many of these are high percentage moves which is why most just say hold on and wait to get the RNC.
colinm
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you can also work your legs up to a reverse triangle from the back, and that gives you a kimura variation, 2 armbars, a "chest crush"/neck crank, and the reverse triangle if you can finish it. ive also got a cool heelhook setup from the top of the turtle position.
stephensharp
Brown Belt
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Calf (the animal) Catcher to Butterfly Neck crank, Exorcist, Judo Triangle, armbar, foot locks, body triangle spine crank....
However, if you only go to the turtle at the right times, it opens up a lot of shit for attacks as the guy often has to move ot become offensive.
If he's outclassing you on the ground, and you go to turtle to defend, and he gets up to soccer kick you... You just achieved the goal of getting him off you so you can get up, too. It's not fool proof, but it's better than just giving up on the ground. There are many useful defensive and offensive uses of the turtle... They just shouldn't be anyone's main gameplan.
However, if you only go to the turtle at the right times, it opens up a lot of shit for attacks as the guy often has to move ot become offensive.
If he's outclassing you on the ground, and you go to turtle to defend, and he gets up to soccer kick you... You just achieved the goal of getting him off you so you can get up, too. It's not fool proof, but it's better than just giving up on the ground. There are many useful defensive and offensive uses of the turtle... They just shouldn't be anyone's main gameplan.
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If you're comfortable with it, and would rather defend the RNC (which is much easier to do with the 4oz gloves on) then getting hit in the face, then give it up. It just all depends how good you are at defending those subs, and how good your opponent is at applying then
The Crow gave up his back against Tanner and Chainsaw, who is a BJJ black belt and defended it well, and then eventually got up and won. It's not always a bad idea.
The Crow gave up his back against Tanner and Chainsaw, who is a BJJ black belt and defended it well, and then eventually got up and won. It's not always a bad idea.
S
Soulfly
Guest
I just got back from newaza practice and used some of the aggressive turtle techniques I've been wanting to try. It worked good, I didn't get stuck or get RNC'd once.
Most people don't expect you to act aggressively from that position. Capitalize on it.
Most people don't expect you to act aggressively from that position. Capitalize on it.
