Getting shit for using catch positioning.

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by b0b, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    When doing open mat, I have been using some of Tony Cecchine's techniques for holding positions (no, not doing hooks), such as his scarf hold and his side-mount technique.

    For those who aren't familiar:

    His philosophy is to make your opponent as uncomfortable as possible, to get him to do stupid things.

    Side mount: Get your legs out far, get your hips as low to the ground as possible and drive all of your weight onto their chest.

    Scarf hold AKA Kesa: Similar to standard judo/bjj hold, but again, you get your butt off the ground and use your hips to put pressure on their chest.

    Anyways, when I am doing open mat, I have had tons of people say that when I have used these techniques, it pushes all of the air out of their lungs and makes them get close to tapping. Keep in mind that I am not even trying for a sub at this point. I have also been scolded by higher belts saying I am not doing it the right way, and that there are many counters to the way I am positioned. I then respond(respectfully) that there are counters to everything, and that I am just trying new things.

    To me, the catch positioning seems more natural, and is easier for me to hold postition, make the opponent uncomfortable, etc. I understand they want to break bad habits, but I don't see these positions as bad habits at all.

    Anyone else get shit for trying new things?
     
  2. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    I just read a Renzo Gracie quote from that 20 tips article posted a few days back, where he said, "Always remain open to new ideas, you never know where you will find the next big thing" (OK, I am paraphrasing). Don't let people get to you. Just keep experimenting and trying stuff out.
     
  3. Tegelsten

    Tegelsten Team Misstag

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    the guys you are rolling with seem like whiners who have never had someone put real pressure on them. The higherbelts that claim that its easy to escape actually manage to escape easily? If so, listen to them.
     
  4. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    When I roll with the higher belts, I am never in dominate position., I am always getting tooled from the start, so I can't tell yet.

    Sometimes during the instruction part, we practice escape drills from different variants of the Kesa, and they encourage me to use the Catch technique on them at that point. Even though I am not holding it like I would in open mat or a match, they struggle, gurggle, and flop around like a fish, but usually do get out eventually.

    They get out of the standard scarf hold much easier and with less effort though.
     
  5. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Catch positioning is the same as wrestling positioning with respect to pins. Yes they are designed to put incredible pressure on an opponent to force them to give up the pin..either by sheer force of the bodyweight pinning the shoulder to the mat OR by driving the fight out of the opponent who then succumbs and lies flat from fatigue.

    I dont kow that these are that "easy" to reverse or else wrestlers who find themselves ina pin like that would be reversing "easily"....
    Especially at the highest levels...when one guy goes to his back in a pinning hold the match is over 90% of the time.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Plus it never hurts to try something new as long as you know WHEN to use it. The holds you described are somewhat stable moves that dont allow you much movement. Its desinged to hold someone down and put considerable pressure on a small target ....It s really not designed as a transition but you can easily switch from the "secure" wrestling side control pin to the BJJ side control after forcing air out of your opponents lungs for a minute. Nothing wrong with that.!!!!!! Heck last week we watched a clip posted on thsi very site about a guy using the "turtle" as an offensive defense and pretty well I might add....not too sure this was BJJ the way it was taught to helio but it sure looked alot like wrestling reversals to me...and judo reversals fro that matter....

    anyway, have fun with it!
     
  6. DonkeyKong

    DonkeyKong Frazier > Ali

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    the problem with tony
     
  7. pitviper259

    pitviper259 Guest

    I use catch holds all the time. I had wrestled for about 8 years before i started doing jiu jitsu so all i had were catch holds, and you'd be surprised at how easy it was for me to hold even higher belts on there back, of course i couldnt sub them, but i could hold them all day until. 1) they tapped from boredom or 2) I tapped from boredom LOL
     
  8. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    Bob, you are a newb. Don't take it personally. But when higher belts and more experienced people are telling you you are doing something wrong, you probably are. They probably aren't chiding you for keeping side control. They are chiding you probably because you are doing nothing from the position other than making it uncomfortable for the other person. If you want to sit in a safe position the whole match and just be heavy on a guy be sure you outweigh them by 50lbs. Then get up and flex your superior skills a bit. Brag about how they can't tap you. etc.

    If you are going to use Kesa to crush someone and that's it...well...grats. Try the Severn neck crank while you are at it. And be sure to lean your forearm on peoples faces from side control.

    It isn't so much people give you shit for trying new things, they are probably trying to steer you away from being a dick and using shit that simply doesn't work that well. Like a headlock. You can vise down and crank the shit out of one. It is extremely uncomfortable. And if you have a little bit of skill you can hold someone for a while. But the reality is you could be something else that will improve your overall skills. Like learning transitions.

    The philosophy of making people uncomfortable so they move into bad positions is a good philosophy. I use it myself. But it is no substitute for technique. And since you are a newb, your technique sucks. I recommend working on what they want you to work on in class instead of trying to make up new shit, use crazy shit, or bring a bunch of new stuff from all the tapes you buy. BASICS. They should be teaching them. You should be learning them.
     
  9. DonkeyKong

    DonkeyKong Frazier > Ali

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    Stoic1, out of curiosity, what belt are you
     
  10. greasemonkey

    greasemonkey Banned Banned

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    I already do shit like that, and I didn't see his instructional. Another thing that pisses people off is if you have some1s back but they have their chin down defending the choke. You jam your knuckles into both sides of their neck forcing their chin up giving you an oppurtunity to get an RNC or w/e.
     
  11. Te(V)plar

    Te(V)plar Black Belt

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    scarf hold is really easy to get out of, especially if you keep your cool and dont freak out.

    The idea of making people uncomfortable to force mistakes will work with less experienced people, but a seasoned grappler knows when he's in danger and when he's not. As a result, you may not get as much mileage out of such tactics higher level.


    *edit: what stoic said seemed pretty spot-on.
     
  12. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    I have to agree with what stoic is saying. While I like the wrestling positions you mentioned as a way to "secure" control b4 moving on, he might be on to something concerning the reason why the instructor is asking you to do something else.

    You seemed to have done well with the pins...so now move on to another part of your game. Use the pins to gain control after a few seconds you should know if he is truly held down well, that being the case then move into your transition type position like the BJJ side mount.
     
  13. 2om30

    2om30 Red Belt

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    that's what grappling is all aobut controlling your opponet on the ground..i don't see anything wrong with it.If they whine than tell them not to let you pass their guard.
     
  14. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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    If your instructors are telling you not to try new things, it's because, A) they don't like you or B) they aren't good instructors. Either could be the case with you bOb. The question I have: Is what you're doing working? If so, is it legal? If both are yes...then what's the problem???
     
  15. the guys you roll with are jsut being bitches unless you have 50-100 lbs on them. it's your job to make them uncomfortable or else they just clam up and stall or focus on sweeping you and now instead of going for the sub, you're fighting to hold your pos.

    unless you're doing something impropperly and getting caught for it, some bad habit, etc.. then do what you do. if they're complaining it's because you're doing it right. =P in wrestling if someone's complaining or whatever they have the option of pinning them self basically. in rolling they can tap. are you supposed to weaken your game because someone is crying at you?
     
  16. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    BOB let me back up for a bit...Dont you train at the school that wont let a white belt do subs during open mat?

    If thats the case, heck with em..pin the hell outta them during open mat..
    Mebee that will motivate them to let you unleash your subs.
     
  17. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    Yes.
     
  18. Waxwingslain

    Waxwingslain oiseau rebelle

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    Stoic1 is a purple belt I believe.

    I'm inclined to agree but I don't see why people shouldn't try weird stuff as long as they've spent a year or so getting some basics down.
     
  19. VanDamme

    VanDamme Green Belt

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    Hes not the only one with that philosophy though- the entire positioning and entrance to submissions deals with this as well in BJJ.

    You should never have your knees on the ground from the side mounted position when you're in the scarf hold anyways- thats back to basic BJJ- you're doing the right thing


    First point you made- THATS GOOD! What would you do if someone complained that they didnt like you armlocking them because they would get close to tapping?

    I cant see the exact position you're doing (obviously) but ask the higher belts to show you the counters to the position (i.e. you apply your techniques on them and they do their thing). If you're really doing something wrong and they know it, you'll find out quickly. If they just dont like that you're doing something different, but not exactly wrong, thats their problem
     
  20. joshdsbrgh

    joshdsbrgh White Belt

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    i train in jj and im actually told to do it(i do traditional with heavy bjj aspects)
     

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