Getting shit for using catch positioning.

[stephensharp]

b0b, I'm often confused by your posts... You're a grappling n00b, but sometimes you have yoru head in the right place. You seem to realize your school may be BS, but then you've attacked others for doing things differently.

Only problems I can see from your descriptin is that if you don't get a knee up by the hip on side control, then regardless of how uncomfortable it is, it's too easy for a decent guy to shrimp to guard, especially once you try to actually get him with anything.

The problem with kesa is you have to get it just right... If you lift your hips even a 1/2 inch too far, you'll be rolled. Sit up too straight, they'll escape out the back or sit up like Quinton Jackson.

Most of all, your instructors MAY have a point in that you may be jumping into "new things" a little early when they might see you as lacking even the basics yet... My little brother was going to a BJJ place ran by a purple belt and a TKD black belt, both in their early 20s, and they encouraged them to do whatever worked for them, and wound up with basically a bunch of guys moving through children's belt progressions and trying the camel clutch whenever they got the back. Why? Because they got it to work on an equally green partner in class, so they thought it was legit. Their technique they picked up from a video or book only had to be good enough to get another guy that was equally lacking in fundamentals.

Jury's still out on your school and what to think of your grappling knowledge, but as a poster and a person I think you're alright. Take a step back and look at your school, your training, and what's going on, and tell us what you think is the real deal there. I keep thinking more and more that you're at some kind of mcdojo, what with the funky belt progression and contradictory stories, but it could also be partially you.

 

[colinm]

^^^good post.

i couldnt agree more that sprawling your hips to the ground in side control is not the best thing to do. you can hold from there, but that's about it. scarf hold is sketchy too. ive met some people with good submission sequences from there, but you're just asking for someone to take your back if you make a mistake. so your partners may not be a sniveling bunch of girls after all, they might be trying to help you out, jk of course.

 

[Gsoares2***]

They are probably yelling at you for the Scarf hold.. Judo guys love it as a pin down but it sux in bjj.
You might be able to pin the guy for a second but you cant finish from the position.. and we he does escape your giving your back.

 

[rfrankb4]

I am jsut a lowly white belt but every tie i am receiving instruction from a brown or black on positioning it involves putting all your weight on them, pushing their head to the side and down, ect.

I Dont to it as much in rolling since most of the guys are smaller than I am and I dont want to just win because they couldnt breath with my 50lb weight advantage but I always try to do so on guys my size or larger.

I would imagin if they are telling you that you are doing it incorrectly they are saying it for a reason not just because its uncomforble.
Everytime i roll with the large purple belt at either place i go to with their superior mat time and techneique and I cannto control any position on them regardless of how much weight I put on them. I would guess the purple belts and higher where you are would do the same to you if they wished. It is dishearting how quickly they can get out of my sidecontrol, mount, or back control that work well on other people.

 

[triso]

It is dishearting how quickly they can get out of my sidecontrol, mount, or back control that work well on other people.

I understand what you mean, but I actually find this inspiring. It shows how much better in skill level they are, and gives you something to look forward too.

I aspire to be THAT good.

 

[paulchu]

actually that was what i was taught to do.... and i would encourage it

1) making them uncomfortable is the best way to make openings for submissions and new moves
2) pushing your weight on them spralwed... i dont know why people would give you shit for that, I hear the Gracies are quite good at this, and will actually make people tap just by this alone.

But think of this in real world consequences.... wouldn't making them uncomfortable and putting all your weight on them put you in a better position? your bjj would actually be stronger.

the guy i train with kinda bucked the norm and started with BJJ THEN went into wrestling to supplement his BJJ game, and this is what he's been teaching me. he actually encouraged me to fill up a gym bag with towels and laundry and stuff to make it kinda tight and practice concentrating all my weight with either shoulders. anyone who complains about something like this is a pussy.

but i will agree that doing this for an extended period of time is dumb, esp for side mount. Side CONTROL, is probably a much better position to do this in considering there is control of the arm.

 

[stephensharp]

actually that was what i was taught to do.... and i would encourage it

1) making them uncomfortable is the best way to make openings for submissions and new moves
2) pushing your weight on them spralwed... i dont know why people would give you shit for that, I hear the Gracies are quite good at this, and will actually make people tap just by this alone.

But think of this in real world consequences.... wouldn't making them uncomfortable and putting all your weight on them put you in a better position? your bjj would actually be stronger.

the guy i train with kinda bucked the norm and started with BJJ THEN went into wrestling to supplement his BJJ game, and this is what he's been teaching me. he actually encouraged me to fill up a gym bag with towels and laundry and stuff to make it kinda tight and practice concentrating all my weight with either shoulders. anyone who complains about something like this is a pussy.

but i will agree that doing this for an extended period of time is dumb, esp for side mount. Side CONTROL, is probably a much better position to do this in considering there is control of the arm.

Think about it like this...

If I stand on your face, straight up, with both feet, it's gonna hurt like a bitch.


HOWEVER...

It's easy to knock me off balance, and then you'll be pissed, and I couldn't do anything to finish you off if the pain wasn't enough to do it.


You have to strike a balance between cutting off the other guy's options and leaving yourself some. If you're in a bizarre position that leaves openings for him to escape, but none for you to sub him, making him move is just making you work.

That said, do the kesa with an underhook on the far side instead of the headlock. It opens up your game.

 

[paulchu]

but its not a bizzare position, In that position, it's really hard for him to try and strike upwards towards you. a guard is a weaker position offensively, the only saving grace is the fact that you can control the opponent's body movement with your legs. if you take a step and posiition your leg under the back of his thigh, his legs are trapped. You have countered his movement for immobilizing you and have immobilizied him. save for his arms. He can either be stubborn and get the elbow to the inside of the thigh (which hurts like a bee0tch), or he'll open up his guard and think about doing that again. either way, you're in a much better position.

And to use your analogy, if a guy's standing on your face, and you strike him in the balls, he will get the hell off your face, because his position is only advantageous if the person getting stepped on is doing nothing.

I'm not saying this is the end all way to get out of the guard, that you will have to feel out for yourself, but if the guy doesn't want to let go of his guard, prying it open with a little pain won't hurt.

You don't even need to open this all the way, you just need enough to get your arms under his legs, get a nice grip around them, and roll the fucker on his back. Then sprawl your feet back, put a lot of pressure on him via the shoulders and you'll end up in side control/mount.

 

[GuardGame]

sounds like some good shit

 

[Coleman]

I think those wrestling type holds you were talking about work great for mma because you can hold them in a dominate position like and then just chip away at them.

 

[Soulfly]

They are probably yelling at you for the Scarf hold.. Judo guys love it as a pin down but it sux in bjj.
You might be able to pin the guy for a second but you cant finish from the position.. and we he does escape your giving your back.

There are MANY ways to finish someone from kesa. About 3 ude garami's by using your legs, two with your hands, you can switch to a juji gatame with some fast positioning, you can go into kata gatame and choke the guy, or choke ala Ezekial / Sode Guruma Jime, and thats not EVEN if they try to roll out or bridge.

Then you get into waki gatame, koshi jime, and more.

Judo is good.

 

[JABobo3]

When doing open mat, I have been using some of Tony Cecchine's techniques for holding positions (no, not doing hooks), such as his scarf hold and his side-mount technique.

For those who aren't familiar:

His philosophy is to make your opponent as uncomfortable as possible, to get him to do stupid things.

Side mount: Get your legs out far, get your hips as low to the ground as possible and drive all of your weight onto their chest.

Scarf hold AKA Kesa: Similar to standard judo/bjj hold, but again, you get your butt off the ground and use your hips to put pressure on their chest.

Anyways, when I am doing open mat, I have had tons of people say that when I have used these techniques, it pushes all of the air out of their lungs and makes them get close to tapping. Keep in mind that I am not even trying for a sub at this point. I have also been scolded by higher belts saying I am not doing it the right way, and that there are many counters to the way I am positioned. I then respond(respectfully) that there are counters to everything, and that I am just trying new things.

To me, the catch positioning seems more natural, and is easier for me to hold postition, make the opponent uncomfortable, etc. I understand they want to break bad habits, but I don't see these positions as bad habits at all.

Anyone else get shit for trying new things?

I do the same thing I just always underhook the far armpit and stand on my feet putting all the weight on people. It works and there is no easy escape, just make sure you have the far armpit underhooked and your knee under the close armpit. Then you can just switch between that and twister side control if they try anything.

 

[Colby18***]

My teacher preaches this: make em feel like shit. They'll be concentrating on gettin away from those annoying holds while your working on a sub. I also like to drive my shoulder into their face when i have side mount...pretty much just make sure their face is never lookin at you...really sucks. Have top mount push their face into the matt so their not facing you....and you can punch away if it were mma.

Good times..

Keep it up, but listen and think about what the higher belts are telling oyu...maybe their trying to help you out and ur just taking offence to it. then aagin I could be wrong.