Law Germany Declares Burning EU Flag a Hate Crime Punishable by Three Years in Prison

[Grenz]

I’m liberal, and I support the right to burn the American flag.
I’m interested in what the criticism is in this thread. Is it the fact that they’re prohibited from burning the EU flag specifically (as opposed to the German flag)? Conservatives in this country have long opposed the right to burn our flag, wouldn’t they support laws like these? Or is this a “burning your nation’s flag=bad, but burning the flag of a group of nations=good because “Damn Our Globalist Overlords” type of issue?

Just to clear up some points that weren't necessarily clear in the OP:

There's a detail here that changes the story slightly. It's not just the EU flag, it's all foreign flags. So you're subject to the same fine if you burned eg a Canadian flag. The reasoning is that burning foreign flags isn't part of peaceful protest, which at least you have to admit isn't an entirely untenable position. The law was made partly in response to an Israeli flag burning incident 3 years ago. An event like that triggers the collective German WWII PTSD, a solution is required (irony not lost), and out comes this law, supported by the two parties that combined hold roughly 50% of the vote.

Germany's concept of freedom of speech isn't the same as in the US. In modern day Germany, all roads lead back to the 3rd Reich, or at least make a huge loop around the bend there, before they continue further into the past. As it pertains to this law, understand that Germany has always had laws that govern national symbolism, namely those of the Nazi variety. You might misinterpret this as censorship, but the fact is, by grade 10 every German child knows more about the Nazi era than your average History major, including its symbolism. The context in which these teachings and discussions occur, is always "You need to understand this at both an intellectual as well as visceral level, because your generation will be in charge at some point, and you must never let this happen again."

The reason why the display of Nazi symbolism is banned in non-educational contexts, is that it accomplishes nothing good other than some vague appeal to the concept of personal liberty. But in Germany, pragmatism and rationality will always reign, so the question is asked "What good would it accomplish if Citizens were allowed to drive around with Nazi flag bumper stickers?", and it's determined that the good is dwarfed by the bad.

Same here: What good does it accomplish if German citizens are allowed to burn foreign flags in front of the Brandenburger Tor? In the average German's mind, the answer is probably 'very little', whereas on the con side, they see a road they've traveled before, they know where it potentially leads, and that can't happen again.

 

[BFoe]

Just to clear up some points that weren't necessarily clear in the OP:



Germany's concept of freedom of speech isn't the same as in the US. In modern day Germany, all roads lead back to the 3rd Reich, or at least make a huge loop around the bend there, before they continue further into the past. As it pertains to this law, understand that Germany has always had laws that govern national symbolism, namely those of the Nazi variety. You might misinterpret this as censorship, but the fact is, by grade 10 every German child knows more about the Nazi era than your average History major, including its symbolism. The context in which these teachings and discussions occur, is always "You need to understand this at both an intellectual as well as visceral level, because your generation will be in charge at some point, and you must never let this happen again."

The reason why the display of Nazi symbolism is banned in non-educational contexts, is that it accomplishes nothing good other than some vague appeal to the concept of personal liberty. But in Germany, pragmatism and rationality will always reign, so the question is asked "What good would it accomplish if Citizens were allowed to drive around with Nazi flag bumper stickers?", and it's determined that the good is dwarfed by the bad.

Same here: What good does it accomplish if German citizens are allowed to burn foreign flags in front of the Brandenburger Tor? In the average German's mind, the answer is probably 'very little', whereas on the con side, they see a road they've traveled before, they know where it potentially leads, and that can't happen again.

Very well said. What I thought was interesting, and what I was trying to get at in my post, was that it seemed like conservatives in this thread were standing in opposition to this law. Whereas when the right to burn the American flag is debated, they tend to support the idea that flag burning should be illegal. I was curious if I was understanding their point of view correctly, and curious as to what they saw as the difference in those issues.

 

[Grenz]

Very well said. What I thought was interesting, and what I was trying to get at in my post, was that it seemed like conservatives in this thread were standing in opposition to this law. Whereas when the right to burn the American flag is debated, they tend to support the idea that flag burning should be illegal. I was curious if I was understanding their point of view correctly, and curious as to what they saw as the difference in those issues.

I suspect the reason lies in the fact that the American flag is revered as a national symbol to literally mythical extents, whereas foreign flags hold no special meaning. Just my guess, I'm not American.

 

[Ichibanner]

But....what if they are hoisting the German flag and burning the EU flag while exclaiming "Sieg Heil"? Would that warrant more or less punishment?

 

[Corn Pop Hombre]

Do they?

yes they have tried outlawing flag burning for decades

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Ah I thought you meant on here. You mean generally. I think you'd find a lot of liberals find flag burning disgusting too.

I'm sure that most do, though I don't think you'll find any that want it outlawed if it was done solely as an act of free speech.

 

[Corn Pop Hombre]

Ah I thought you meant on here. You mean generally. I think you'd find a lot of liberals find flag burning disgusting too.

I mean, I pointed out right wingers in this very thread that are against flag burning and felt that you should be able to physically assault someone for burning the American flag.

Also, you're probably right. There probably are liberals that find flag burning to be disgusting, but tbf I find liberals to be disgusting. So

 

[The XL]

The curtain is being pulled back when it pertains to so called freedom in the West. The elite are being bold at this point, putting people in prison for having the audacity to open their businesses and burn flags.