Tech Gaming Hardware discussion (& Hardware Sales) thread

I shouldn't be sharing this, it's such a vaporous rumor at this point, but I couldn't help myself. Highlighted the key parts in red.

AMD Ryzen 4000, Zen 3 Desktop CPUs Could Bring Estimated 20% IPC Increase over Zen 2, Internal Performance & Efficiency Figures Outperform Intel CPUs By Huge Margin
WCCF Tech said:
he AMD Ryzen 4000 Desktop CPUs, codenamed Vermeer, are planned to launch later this year for the AM4 socket. There have been several rumors about these processors but the latest one comes from Ice Universe who's a prominent leaker and has covered many stories that have turned out to be true in the past. Regardless, it is still advised that since this is a rumor, the info may or may not end up being true so a slight pinch of salt is always recommended.

According to the information which was posted by Ice Universe over on his Weibo account which our friend David got sight of, the AMD Ryzen 4000 Desktop CPUs might be a bigger deal than we have previously been told.

The rumor mentions that engineers at two well-known OEMs have indicated that the performance of Ryzen 4000 CPUs based on the Zen 3 architecture has risen to an 'Alarming Level'. In the next statement, it is reported that these OEMs have also compared the performance of Ryzen 4000 with Intel's upcoming products, and based on the results, AMD Ryzen 4000 will utterly beat Intel in both performance and efficiency figures.

Now it is not known whether the OEMs are comparing the performance of AMD's Ryzen 4000 Desktop CPUs with Intel's Comet Lake or the next-generation Rocket Lake line of desktop CPUs. From what I get, it must be Rocket Lake-S which is being compared to AMD's Ryzen 4000 CPUs. Now Rocket Lake-S isn't a standard chip either.

The Rocket Lake CPUs will be featuring a 14nm backport of either Sunny Cove or Willow Cove cores. The Sunny Cove cores bring at least an 18% jump in IPC over Skylake while Willow Cove will further improve IPC. The main hurdle for Intel is that it's Skylake 14nm architecture has matured a lot and keeping up with it in terms of clock speeds would be a hard undertaking. So taking the 18% figure as a baseline while taking into consideration that Zen 2 matches or slightly exceeds the Skylake core in IPC, the fight would be real close, especially if what's reported in the next statement is true.

The same leaker reports that AMD has claimed a theoretical IPC improvement for Zen 3 of about 15-17% but once again, internal tests by the OEMs reveal that the IPC is much better than AMD's own claims. The first AMD Ryzen 4000 chips based on the advanced 7nm+ architecture feature IPC that exceeds expectations which leads me to believe that we can get anywhere from 15% to all the way up to 20% IPC increase with Zen 3 cores. This would be a massive IPC uplift for Ryzen 4000 Zen 3 CPUs if true so once again, wait for the official announcement which is expected around the 2nd half of 2020.

The AMD Zen 3 architecture is said to be the greatest CPU design since the original Zen. It is a chip that has been completely revamped from the group up and focuses on three key features of which include significant IPC gains, faster clocks, and higher efficiency.

AMD has so far confirmed themselves that Zen 3 brings a brand new CPU architecture, which helps deliver significant IPC gains, faster clocks, and even higher core counts than before. Some rumors have even pointed to a 17% increase in IPC and a 50% increase in Zen 3's floating-point operations along with a major cache redesign:

When asked about what kind of performance gain Milan's CPU core microarchitecture, which is known as Zen 3, will deliver relative to the Zen 2 microarchitecture that Rome relies on in terms of instructions processed per CPU clock cycle (IPC), Norrod observed that -- unlike Zen 2, which was more of an evolution of the Zen microarchitecture that powers first-gen Epyc CPUs -- Zen 3 will be based on a completely new architecture.

Norrod did qualify his remarks by pointing out that Zen 2 delivered a bigger IPC gain than what's normal for an evolutionary upgrade -- AMD has said it's about 15% on average -- since it implemented some ideas that AMD originally had for Zen but had to leave on the cutting board. However, he also asserted that Zen 3 will deliver performance gains "right in line with what you would expect from an entirely new architecture."

- The Street

Other rumors have pointed out to a 50% increase in overall floating-point performance. We also got to see a major change to the cache design in an EPYC presentation, which showed that Zen 3 would be offering a unified cache design which should essentially double the cache that each Zen 3 core could have access compared to Zen 2.

The CPUs are also expected to get up to 200-300 MHz clock boost, which should bring Zen 3 based Ryzen processors close to the 9th Generation Intel Core offerings. That, along with the massive IPC increase and general changes to the architecture, would result in much faster performance than existing Ryzen 3000 processors, which already made a huge jump over Ryzen 2000 and Ryzen 1000 processors while being an evolutionary product rather than revolutionary, as AMD unveiled very recently.

The key thing to consider is that we will get to see the return of the chiplet architecture and AMD will retain support on the existing AM4 socket. The AM4 socket was to last until 2020 so it is likely that the Zen 3 based Ryzen 4000 CPUs would be the last family to utilize the socket before AMD goes to AM5 which would be designed around the future technologies such as DDR5 and USB 4.0. AMD's X670 chipset was also hinted as to arrive by the end of this year and will feature enhanced PCIe Gen 4.0 support and increased I/O in the form of more M.2, SATA, and USB 3.2 ports.

It was recently confirmed by AMD that Ryzen 4000 Desktop CPUs will only be supported by 500-series chipsets which caused a major uproar in the tech community but after talking to motherboard makers, there's still a slight chance that AMD would allow BIOS revisions to be released for Ryzen 4000 compatibility on at least 400 series chipsets such as X470 and B450.

As for competition, the AMD Ryzen 4000 'Zen 3 Vermeer' lineup would compete against Intel's soon to be released Comet Lake-S and its upcoming Rocket Lake-S desktop processors. Tackling the Intel Comet Lake-S won't be so hard since the Ryzen 3000 CPUs are competitively positioned against the entire lineup as evident from the recent performance leaks, but Rocket Lake-S seems to be a major architectural uplift for Intel (although still based on 14nm process) which might just be Intel's way back in the desktop mainstream market.


Cliffs: not only is Ryzen 4000 beating the pants off Intel's disastrous Comet Lake chips we're just starting to see benchmarked in the wild, but it's thrashing the successor Rocket Lake-S generation to those chips. Furthermore, as we already know, these chips will run on X570 motherboards, but they could potentially even run on X470 & B450 motherboards, too, so many current AMD owners won't even have to upgrade their motherboards to upgrade their CPU.

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Don't forget that so far it doesn't look like the 10th gen Comet Lake chips will offer any improvement to IPC over the 9th gen Intel chips, or no more than a few percent in practical tasks at the most. A reminder of where the IPC battle stands with Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000 CPUs, ex. R7-3700X) vs. Coffee Lake Refresh (Intel 9th Gen CPUs, ex. i9-9900K).
https://forums.sherdog.com/posts/154094775/
You have to remember that IPC is itself an abstract concept that varies with the workload being tested at a given normalized frequency. In fact, in most synthetics, Ryzen 3rd gen does have the IPC advantage. It's IPC in gaming where Intel still wins, by a tiny margin, for the majority (i.e. <50%) of games. Cinebench has long been the gold standard for IPC potential, and Ryzen delivered on AMD's hype chart:

COMPUTEX_KEYNOTE_DRAFT_FOR_PREBRIEF.26.05.19-page-035b_575px.jpg


Ryzen 3rd Gen IPC Analyses
 
I shouldn't be sharing this, it's such a vaporous rumor at this point, but I couldn't help myself. Highlighted the key parts in red.

AMD Ryzen 4000, Zen 3 Desktop CPUs Could Bring Estimated 20% IPC Increase over Zen 2, Internal Performance & Efficiency Figures Outperform Intel CPUs By Huge Margin



Cliffs: not only is Ryzen 4000 beating the pants off Intel's disastrous Comet Lake chips we're just starting to see benchmarked in the wild, but it's thrashing the successor Rocket Lake-S generation to those chips. Furthermore, as we already know, these chips will run on X570 motherboards, but they could potentially even run on X470 & B450 motherboards, too, so many current AMD owners won't even have to upgrade their motherboards to upgrade their CPU.

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Will it fit in my mobo lol

Edit: just read your comment as I have a high end x570 board I'm covered.
 
Yeah, think i'll wait on Ryzen 4000 and Geforce 3000 series. AMD cpu's were good to me in the past so i have no reason not to go back.
 
Ryzen 7 4700G possibly in the works!
AMD Renoir Ryzen 7 4700G Pictured - Specifications Leaked
It looks like AMD plans to release Renoir onto their AM4 socket, and with it will come support for eight cores, sixteen threads and 7nm Radeon Vega graphics, creating the most powerful Ryzen series APU to date.
Videocardz has released the first image of AMD's Ryzen 7 4700G, and igor'sLab has released the CPU's specifications. This APU will deliver gamers eight cores, sixteen threads and base/boost clock speeds of 3.6GHz and 4.4GHz, delivering a huge performance boost over AMD's Ryzen 5 3400G. Combine this with AMD's use of Zen 2 CPU cores, and we have a huge performance advantage on our hands.
On the graphics side, AMD's Ryzen 7 4700G features eight enhanced Vega compute units, offering users a rumoured clock speed of 2100MHz. While the 4700G features three fewer Vega compute units, a 27% decrease, AMD has countered this decrease with a 50% boost in GPU clock speed. This should give AMD's latest APU a significant performance boost, despite its lower number of GPU compute units.
https://www.overclock3d.net/news/so...en_7_4700g_pictured_-_specifications_leaked/1
 
but they could potentially even run on X470 & B450 motherboards, too, so many current AMD owners won't even have to upgrade their motherboards to upgrade their CPU.
So far Zen 3 will NOT run on x470/b450 boards unfortunately. Big controversy ongoing currently as AMD initially said they would. Not clear if they will reverse course or not

But still AMD is crushing Intel, who is exclusively now in the space heater business.
 
Zen 3 will NOT run on x470/b450 boards unfortunately. Big controversy ongoing currently as AMD initially said they would.

But still AMD is crushing Intel, who is exclusively now in the space heater business.
I'll assume you didn't read the article I shared in that post. Their initial declaration when they announced the new Ryzen 4000 roadmap showed no support for B450/X470, but WCCFTech notes this caused an uproar in the community, and mentions after talking to motherboard makers there is still a "slight chance" those boards could see firmware revisions added at a later time. The article is from May 15.
 
I'll assume you didn't read the article I shared in that post. Their initial declaration when they announced the new Ryzen 4000 roadmap showed no support for B450/X470, but WCCFTech notes this caused an uproar in the community, and mentions after talking to motherboard makers there is still a "slight chance" those boards could see firmware revisions added at a later time. The article is from May 15.
Slight chance = ask marketing how much they stand to lose/gain

I'll assume they already made that assessment when they decided to forego their original plan of AM4 boards lasting thru 2020 CPU releases
 
Slight chance = ask marketing how much they stand to lose/gain

I'll assume they already made that assessment when they decided to forego their original plan of AM4 boards lasting thru 2020 CPU releases
The issue is AMD has said they won't provide a beta-BIOS revision like they did with those 300 series boards for Zen 2. This is because most of the 400 series boards don't support a 32MB BIOS.
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/heres...ards-wont-support-amds-ryzen-4000-processors/

AMD’s 1st and 2nd Gen Ryzen CPUs Can Only Address 16MB BIOS ROMs
The crux of the story is that AMD’s older 1st and 2nd Gen Ryzen CPUs can only address 16MB BIOS ROMs while the 3rd Gen and the upcoming 4th Gen “Vermeer” processors work with 32MB BIOS ROMs as well. The BIOS ROMs contain all the data required by the motherboard at the time of booting. This includes the BIOS interface (UEFI), microcode (AGESA), compatibility data, default settings, and all the other data required to initialize the system startup before the OS kernel takes over.

Now, the 3rd Gen Matisse chips retained compatibility with the older B450 motherboards by using a workaround. As already mentioned above, the 1st and 2nd Gen Ryzen CPUs can only address 16MB BIOS ROMs. They simply aren’t compatible with 32MB ROMs. The 3rd Gen Ryzen parts, however, do support 32MB BIOS ROMs, and the same goes true for the 4th Gen Vermeer chips. OEMs overcame this hurdle by partitioning the ROM into two 16MB chunks allowing both the older as well as the newer Ryzen CPUs to run with the same chipset.

However, back then there were only 2-3 generations. By the time Vermeer lands, there will be four generations of Ryzen processors plus two APU generations under the Zen family.

It’ll be hard to contain all this data in the older 16MB BIOS ROMs. Motherboard makers will need to cut down either certain CPU lineups or the features. The later includes downgrading from 3D UIs to bare-bore 2D ones, remove support for advanced I/O or limit fan control and addressable RGB headers.

One of the reasons why the X570 boards have advanced I/O and better features is that they feature the 32MB BIOS ROMs allowing the inclusion of a much more wide feature-set. The older B450 and X470 motherboards, on the other hand, are mostly very limited in terms of the I/O and other BIOS level feature. There are some 400 series boards, especially X470 offerings that from the beginning included a partitioned 32MB ROM which is why they were able to upgrade to most features of the X570 platform with minimal effort (in most cases a BIOS update).

In essence, the partitioning the BIOS ROM can technically allow the motherboard to support all three (or four) generations of CPUs but you’ll lose some of the advanced features of the new chipset. The first 16MB partition will be used to store the data related to Matisse and Vermeer (3rd and 4th Gen Ryzen) while the second one will hold compatibility data for the older generations. In normal scenarios, the latter would be used for I/O, fan-control, UI or other addressable functions that can be controlled from the BIOS.

However, in this case it’d hold data pertaining to the older Ryzen lineups, and microcode required to allow the motherboard to support the older processors. So, it’s either a better feature-set or flexible compatibility.
So the "slight chance" most likely refers to the possibility AMD will ultimately offer a beta-BIOS for the 400 series motherboards with native 32MB BIOS partitions.
 
I'll assume you didn't read the article I shared in that post. Their initial declaration when they announced the new Ryzen 4000 roadmap showed no support for B450/X470, but WCCFTech notes this caused an uproar in the community, and mentions after talking to motherboard makers there is still a "slight chance" those boards could see firmware revisions added at a later time. The article is from May 15.

Relying on the mobo manufacturers is a shitty way of doing it. What it's going to do is end up with confusion in the marketplace. This B450 from Gigabyte will work with Ryzen 4000 but this B450 won't, etc. Asus boards will, but MSI doesn't. You get where I'm going with this.
 
Indeed, it's not ideal, but we already have something similar with flashback only being supported on certain 400 series motherboards for Zen 2 processors (only MSI, and only some of their boards).

Personally, if I was someone who owned one of those 32MB 400 series boards, I wouldn't care how many dumb owners of non-qualifying motherboards bought a Ryzen 4000 CPU in an ignorant belief their motherboard would support it just because mine does. Caveat Emptor.

I'd want the ability to get a new processor.
 
Indeed, it's not ideal, but we already have something similar with flashback only being supported on certain 400 series motherboards for Zen 2 processors (only MSI, and only some of their boards).

Personally, if I was someone who owned one of those 32MB 400 series boards, I wouldn't care how many dumb owners of non-qualifying motherboards bought a Ryzen 4000 CPU in an ignorant belief their motherboard would support it just because mine does. Caveat Emptor.

I'd want the ability to get a new processor.

I honestly doubt we'll see mobo companies do it. Mother board manufacturers like Asus and MSI aren't you're friends, they're in it to make money. They'd rather force you to buy a new board than spend money on programmers to make older motherboards compatible.
And what's to stop AMD from stopping the mobo manufacturers from doing it. Remember some x470 boards had beta bios's for pcie 4.0, but AMD axed that.

I have a Strix x470 & 3700x and I'd be more than happy if Asus decided to do it themselves, but I'm not going to be upset if they don't. I bought the board in 2018 and I'm going to assume the Ryzen 4000 will be a 15% improvement over the previous version, which means there's no reason for me to upgrade for that generation. So by the time I'm ready to upgrade my cpu it will be 2021, making the board 3 years old and due for an upgrade anyways.
 
Intel with Jim running the show just showed off their most complex project to date their monster GPU. Get a load of Jim face mask. He obviously not taking it to seriously an has a thing for black. Lol.


jim keller an Raje.
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Holy shit. Looks like I was wrong, but that's a good thing.

AMD Reverses Course, Will Enable Zen 3 Support on B450 and X470 Motherboards
After receiving withering criticism from its passionate fan base and casual users alike, AMD has reversed its decision to not enable Zen 3 compatibility with existing B450 and X470 motherboards. Instead, AMD will enable support through optional AGESA code that it will supply to motherboard vendors. However, multiple caveats apply. Here's AMD's quick breakdown, and we also have the full announcement at the end of the article:

  • We will develop and enable our motherboard partners with the code to support “Zen 3”-based processors in select beta BIOSes for AMD B450 and X470 motherboards.
  • These optional BIOS updates will disable support for many existing AMD Ryzen Desktop Processor models to make the necessary ROM space available.
  • The select beta BIOSes will enable a one-way upgrade path for AMD Ryzen Processors with “Zen 3,” coming later this year. Flashing back to an older BIOS version will not be supported.
  • To reduce the potential for confusion, our intent is to offer BIOS download only to verified customers of 400 Series motherboards who have purchased a new desktop processor with “Zen 3” inside. This will help us ensure that customers have a bootable processor on-hand after the BIOS flash, minimizing the risk a user could get caught in a no-boot situation.
  • Timing and availability of the BIOS updates will vary and may not immediately coincide with the availability of the first “Zen 3”-based processors.
  • This is the final pathway AMD can enable for 400 Series motherboards to add new CPU support. CPU releases beyond “Zen 3” will require a newer motherboard.
  • AMD continues to recommend that customers choose an AMD 500 Series motherboard for the best performance and features with our new CPUs.
The new BIOS revisions will enable the full functionality of Zen 3 processors, but you will still not gain access to the PCIe 4.0 interface on B450 and X470 motherboards (they don't support the interface). AMD's initial outline of the upgrade path is a bit nebulous, but the company is frank that these broad outlines will evolve over time.
 
Asetek is making a gpu cooler for Dell that's water cooled, but uses a radiator in a blower card configuration.
I'd like to see an aftermarket version of this with the pump built in. Then you'd still have the option of choosing which card you want and block. Someone like Swiftech should be able to figure it out quick, they have years of pump/radiator combo experience.
7CuFnSQvgs6UiaG9CYziPG-650-80.jpg

DtMQGybJfRXqsh57CPSYLg-650-80.jpg
 
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Asetek is making a gpu cooler for Dell that's water cooled, but uses a radiator in a blower card configuration.

Actually makes sense in reducing the Pc Tower profile. Would like to see it applied to work for both the GPU and CPU.

Next thing to tackle is the PSU design. Reducing it to the size of that extender which rests on the tower back panel for the connectors.
 
Actually makes sense in reducing the Pc Tower profile. Would like to see it applied to work for both the GPU and CPU.

Next thing to tackle is the PSU design. Reducing it to the size of that extender which rests on the tower back panel for the connectors.

I don't know if it would work that well with CPU's. GPU's usually only need a 140mm radiator where a CPU needs at least a 240mm. I'd be worried they wouldn't be able to push enough air through it without making it loud as heck.

I totally agree on the PSU, there seems to be a lot of wasted space inside a psu and they could be shrunk down.
 
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I'll assume you didn't read the article I shared in that post. Their initial declaration when they announced the new Ryzen 4000 roadmap showed no support for B450/X470, but WCCFTech notes this caused an uproar in the community, and mentions after talking to motherboard makers there is still a "slight chance" those boards could see firmware revisions added at a later time. The article is from May 15.
WCCFTech are fucking prophets.
 



TLDR: Intel is still king when it comes to gaming. AMD CPU's are still king in multicore applications.
 



TLDR: Intel is still king when it comes to gaming. AMD CPU's are still king in multicore applications.

Steve (and others) echoing my assessment from the leaks.
  • "Z490 basically-- literally-- being just a reskin of Z390. The only difference in the whole chipset is the WiFi."
  • Motherboard BIOS were such a fantastic mess that he concludes they didn't have enough time for this launch. That's not typical for Intel. Clearly they're panicked and rushed.
  • 10900K running an average of 7C hotter across every core.
  • In spite of this, the peak clock that any core is hitting for more than 1sec at a time is 5.1GHz. That's the 9900K all over again.
  • The average all-core frequency for the chip is 4.15 GHz. This bumps the average of the 9900K 150MHz-170Mhz even with the two additional cores, so that's good, but when you factor in the additional power consumed and heat generated, it doesn't appear to be a genuine improvement unless you're a stock gamer.

As I posted in the other thread, Intel is essentially pulling the same stunt AMD pulled when they released their FX-9xxx series processors. They're calibrating these Comet Lake chips with absurd overclocks at the factory so it looks like they've improved on past generations. They haven't. You could have just overclocked a previous gen 10-core Intel chip to achieve the same results. The only difference from AMD's stunt is they added a few things like more cores, but from the early looks we're getting, if you scrutinize the numbers, all this practically achieved was to gimp the ability of the processor to reach the same ceiling frequencies as the 9th gen or 8th gen processors (with 8 or fewer cores) because the heat gets out of hand. This handicaps those higher single core scores.
Intel Core i9-10900K 10 Core Flagship CPU Runs Very Hot & Consumes 235W Power at 4.8 GHz – Over 90C Temps With a 240mm AIO Cooler
WCCFTech once again proving to be goddamn prophets with their leaks. In fact, the CPU pulled 254W in Anandtech's testing at stock, even higher than the quoted leak, and Techspot records 301W with the MCE enabled which is the stock configuration on most Z490 motherboards.
Anandtech: The Intel Comet Lake Core i9-10900K, i7-10700K, i5-10600K CPU Review: Skylake We Go Again
Dr. Ian Cutress said:
Intel has pushed Comet Lake and its 14nm process to new heights, and in many cases, achieving top results in a lot of our benchmarks, at the expense of power. There’s something to be said for having the best gaming CPU on the market, something which Intel seems to have readily achieved here when considering gaming in isolation, though now Intel has to deal with the messaging around the power consumption, similar how AMD had to do in the Vishera days...

If we remember back to AMD’s Vishera days, the company launched a product with eight cores, 5.0 GHz, with a 220 W TDP. At peak power consumption, the AMD FX-9590 was nearer 270 W, and while AMD offered caveats listed above (‘people don’t’ really care about the power of the system while in use’) Intel chastised the processor for being super power hungry and not high performance enough to be competitive. Fast forward to 2020, we have the reverse situation, where Intel is pumping out the high power processor, but this time, there’s a lot of performance.
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Christ, look at these temps. This is Blender on a 360mm AIO. 84C after an hour in the MCE mode. Meanwhile, I'll also post their temps for the 3700X (on both the stock cooler & a lesser 280mm AIO). Unlike the 10900K it only gets ~1%-2% performance boost from the PBO mode even in synthetics, so that mode isn't necessary for AMD, and PBO also isn't the stock setting on the flagship (X570) motherboards' BIOS.
Temps.png


Temps.png

Distilling gaming performance to its gaming essence. Techspot had it about 2% superior to the 9900K across 7 games at either 1080p or 1440p.
And in Anandtech, the i5-10600K was getting beat up by the 3700X in games, when the total price after adding a cooler to its $262 tag will equalize the two.


Conclusion?
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