GAME OF THRONES v7: Lots of C-People Name Their Swords Edition (Book Discussion=Dubs)

[TheonGreyJoy**]

Yes.
Because if said friend constantly made an effort previous to convince you to leave FOR your own good, and was honest with you - and then suddenly in an uncharacteristic manner he/she berates you to get you to leave then you're an idiot for not reading between the lines.

Not even to say she should have realized that moment. That's fair that she didn't - but the fact that she never seemed to question that conversation and think, maybe there was something more there.... is idiotic.

Now you're just playing devils advocate. You admitted to her being stupid a couple posts ago.

then you assume Tyrion is stupid as he does not know how to be convincing.

And if he was not convincing she would have stayed then saying 'I know you are dong this for my own good and I am not buying it'.

it is only effective and works to get a person to leave IF you can convince them you mean it.

 

[ucunc156]

lock this can thread please

 

[Threetrees]

then you assume Tyrion is stupid as he does not know how to be convincing.

And if he was not convincing she would have stayed then saying 'I know you are dong this for my own good and I am not buying it'.

it is only effective and works to get a person to leave IF you can convince them you mean it.

Like I said, you're just playing devil's advocate.

If you wish to argue that Shae is indeed NOT an idiot, then you have to defend her idiotic decision not to leave EARLIER when Tyrion told her to the truth as well.

More than that, from your own point of view - how is Tyrion stupid if he was indeed convincing enough to get her to leave. But even if she was able to see through his words, then she'd be even more of an idiot to stay because of the extreme measures he went through to insult her into leaving. The fact that she left, and did not realize at a later point that Tyrion was trying to protect her makes her an idiot.

You can't say Tyrion is an idiot in this case because his original goal was accomplished. She left. He has no control over the fact that she's a jealous moron (shown multiple times) who couldn't understand that maybe it was for the best.

 

[ncordless]

Like I said, you're just playing devil's advocate.

If you wish to argue that Shae is indeed NOT an idiot, then you have to defend her idiotic decision not to leave EARLIER when Tyrion told her to the truth as well.

More than that, from your own point of view - how is Tyrion stupid if he was indeed convincing enough to get her to leave. But even if she was able to see through his words, then she'd be even more of an idiot to stay because of the extreme measures he went through to insult her into leaving. The fact that she left, and did not realize at a later point that Tyrion was trying to protect her makes her an idiot.

You can't say Tyrion is an idiot in this case because his original goal was accomplished. She left. He has no control over the fact that she's a jealous moron (shown multiple times) who couldn't understand that maybe it was for the best.

Tyrion is about to die. Shae seems like she's got enough money now for a nice dress and some plastic surgery.

How is Tyrion the smart one and Shae the idiot?

 

[Threetrees]

Tyrion is about to die. Shae seems like she's got enough money now for a nice dress and some plastic surgery.

How is Tyrion the smart one and Shae the idiot?

1) Never said Tyrion was the smart one, just said he wasn't a moron - More than that, he's not in his position because of being an idiot, he's in his position because of circumstances out of his control
2) Shae's intelligence did not lead her to this point. And if it did, then she's not an idiot just a trifling whore and my larger point (that she deserves her animosity) still stands

so....

 

[wlu29]

Some hunting dogs that have eaten people alive.

people as in peasants

not the best killers from the iron islands

 

[wlu29]

Lol. How is she supposed to know the reason for it?

This is the scene in case you forgot it:



I would have sold him out too after that, for the right price of course.

she should understand that he's ONLY doing it to protect her

if she does not get this, then she is DUMB

 

[TheonGreyJoy**]

Like I said, you're just playing devil's advocate.

If you wish to argue that Shae is indeed NOT an idiot, then you have to defend her idiotic decision not to leave EARLIER when Tyrion told her to the truth as well.

More than that, from your own point of view - how is Tyrion stupid if he was indeed convincing enough to get her to leave. But even if she was able to see through his words, then she'd be even more of an idiot to stay because of the extreme measures he went through to insult her into leaving. The fact that she left, and did not realize at a later point that Tyrion was trying to protect her makes her an idiot.

You can't say Tyrion is an idiot in this case because his original goal was accomplished. She left. He has no control over the fact that she's a jealous moron (shown multiple times) who couldn't understand that maybe it was for the best.

no I am not playing advocate.

If Tyrion was not convincing, if your friend was not convincing you ADMIT then the person would not go. They WOULD NOT be convinced.

If they are being convincing then by definition you believe them and thus your actions will be predicated on that belief.

 

[TheonGreyJoy**]

1) Never said Tyrion was the smart one, just said he wasn't a moron - More than that, he's not in his position because of being an idiot, he's in his position because of circumstances out of his control
2) Shae's intelligence did not lead her to this point. And if it did, then she's not an idiot just a trifling whore and my larger point (that she deserves her animosity) still stands

so....

Wait so do you think Shae had all circumstances within her control? wtf? Or is that just an excuse that excuses Tyrion?

 

[Threetrees]

no I am not playing advocate.

If Tyrion was not convincing, if your friend was not convincing you ADMIT then the person would not go. They WOULD NOT be convinced.

If they are being convincing then by definition you believe them and thus your actions will be predicated on that belief.

You're assuming that there is no middle ground in a situation like that.
Believing that those are the only two options means that you're ignoring the fact that there are other factors aside from that one conversation. It's not impossible to be convinced based on the emotions of the moment, then realize better when logic takes over.

Fyi : we should take this to the other thread

 

[Threetrees]

Wait so do you think Shae had all circumstances within her control? wtf? Or is that just an excuse that excuses Tyrion?

I never said that.
He's discussing something else entirely, that Shae is 'smart' because she's going to survive. That's not what you and I were talking about.

 

[TheonGreyJoy**]

You're assuming that there is no middle ground in a situation like that.
Believing that those are the only two options means that you're ignoring the fact that there are other factors aside from that one conversation. It's not impossible to be convinced based on the emotions of the moment, then realize better when logic takes over.

Fyi : we should take this to the other thread

this topic should die in this thread.

I agree there is middle ground.

That has been my entire point. not to white knight Shae but to suggest their is some middle ground then just the complete hatefest she has received with pretty much everything being skewed in the way that is most damning towards her.

The lack of suggestion that Cersei might have threatened or tortured her or killed her if she did not comply...with the easy adoption of 'she is probably doing it for cash' is proof of what I was saying.

The suggestion of that middle ground is why guys took issue with me. No it must just be damning. No middle ground. No suggestion that it could be threats or fear for her life that drive her actions and only 'money' because that is more damning.

 

[theocean]

if she rushed over to KL without all the lessons she is learning the complaint would be how stupid it is that she went from Princess, to slave wife to near Empress level with no character growth shown or lessons. How the f*ck does she now have any capacity to rule???

it seems very ADD (very Just Bleed) to want to rush her into action without any of the necessary character arc to show why she can be a true threat and potential leader.

Its very 2014. I dont know if its very JUST BLEED to want to see action now. It may be very BOO cause they are doing wrastlin stuff on the ground, but just bleed would be wanting Dani to JUST BURN EVERYTHING she finds.

 

[TheonGreyJoy**]

Its very 2014. I dont know if its very JUST BLEED to want to see action now. It may be very BOO cause they are doing wrastlin stuff on the ground, but just bleed would be wanting Dani to JUST BURN EVERYTHING she finds.

Well said.

if you see how easily the second sons could have killed her then having her rush into Westeros and engage in war with Tywin et al, would be foolish and her doom, especially in seasons prior when her dragons where but babes. They are far more crafty then the Sons.

And if she was stomping shit in Westeros as an able Empress, then the complaint would have been how she got there from nothing with no character arc or build up.

it, again is one of those complaints that does not stand up to scrutiny and just seems to be of the pile on type.

Great if people do not identify with her or Brann due to be too far disconnected from the main story now, but the character arc build up are being doing in a very well thought way.

 

[DoomAndDarkness**]

First Bronn isnt the super hero poeple here seem to make him out to be, I dont know why he gets so much love, all hes really done so far is kill some random tool from the Arryns guards. Secondly ICE wasnt the sword Ned fought with, it was a ceremonail sword basically used for executions. Thats why you never saw ned walking with a 7 foot sword on his back. Thats why he didnt fight Jamie with ICE, cause it wasnt a fighting sword. Third... The mountain wouldnt even break a sweat with Bronn, hes been slaughtering cans like Bronn for decades under Tywins command. There are plenty of actual knights that would handle Bronn. A short list would include Mountain, hound, Jamie(pre Locke), Barristan, Jorah id also take... honestly i cant think of many actual knights on the show whos name we know i wouldnt pick over Bronn.

Bron killed Stannis' entire army with a flaming arrow. So many GoT viewers/readers have this love affair with noble born fighters and seem to think being noble automatically makes you a better fighter. Homie from Gin alley would have killed Jon Snow 1v1 and only lost because someone stepped in, but people gloss over that.

 

[theocean]

Bron killed Stannis' entire army with a flaming arrow. So many GoT viewers/readers have this love affair with noble born fighters and seem to think being noble automatically makes you a better fighter. Homie from Gin alley would have killed Jon Snow 1v1 and only lost because someone stepped in, but people gloss over that.

maybe if he fights any of those guys he can run to the top of a wall, dump wildfire all over the fighting pit and shoot a fire arrow at the pit.


Most of the time being noble born does in fact make you better. Instead of sneaking around stealing bread from people in allys, you have swordsmasters training you. Most of the time people think highborn knights are better because they have been trained by some of the best trainers money can buy. So typically they are much better, its not a maybe type thing, if you have been trained by master swordsman a good portion of your life you have a much higher chance of being great, than a dude who might have practiced with a stick he found in an alley.

Jon snow isnt really all that great and dude from gin alley was a legend in his own mind. How many people did you see him kill, i know he claimed to be this bbig fucking deal, but in the sort of words of tywin lannister, anyone who has to say they are a fucking legend is no real fucking legend. Jon was using a sword hed probably used twice against a dude with his preferred weapons, and he had TWO, TWO fucking weapons vs Jon Snows 1 weapon, so he shouldve killed Jon twice as fast if he was a real legend. Jon also had to kill 3-4 people before he arrived to the LEGEN who was hiding in a tent as an obvious attempt to gas JSnow like GSP did BJ. So maybe if the legend had to fight through 4 other crows prior to fighting Jon it couldve been a lot more even, but people seem to gloss that over that he had to hike 10 miles through snow, kill 4 people, and then fight someone in the dark after clearly the LEGENDS eyes had become accustomed to the dim lighting. Legend is a can and so is Bronn, that might be a fair fight, them to no honor having cans.

 

[theocean]

Well said.

if you see how easily the second sons could have killed her then having her rush into Westeros and engage in war with Tywin et al, would be foolish and her doom, especially in seasons prior when her dragons where but babes. They are far more crafty then the Sons.

And if she was stomping shit in Westeros as an able Empress, then the complaint would have been how she got there from nothing with no character arc or build up.

it, again is one of those complaints that does not stand up to scrutiny and just seems to be of the pile on type.

Great if people do not identify with her or Brann due to be too far disconnected from the main story now, but the character arc build up are being doing in a very well thought way.

IM just saying thats why her character catches a lot of flack... noone wants to see a lady sit around and give people gold for her dragons dominating shit, they want to see her dragons dominating shit NOW. And not some shitty goat.

 

[TheonGreyJoy**]

IM just saying thats why her character catches a lot of flack... noone wants to see a lady sit around and give people gold for her dragons dominating shit, they want to see her dragons dominating shit NOW. And not some shitty goat.

And I am just saying that if she jumped across the sea and became this Empress over night commanding an army efficiently she would get the same or more flack due to her character arcing so high with no training or world experience.

Our debate here would be about how it would have been better had they let her season more across the sea first. Conquer some minor shit before taking on Westeros.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Well said.

if you see how easily the second sons could have killed her then having her rush into Westeros and engage in war with Tywin et al, would be foolish and her doom, especially in seasons prior when her dragons where but babes. They are far more crafty then the Sons.

And if she was stomping shit in Westeros as an able Empress, then the complaint would have been how she got there from nothing with no character arc or build up.

it, again is one of those complaints that does not stand up to scrutiny and just seems to be of the pile on type.

Great if people do not identify with her or Brann due to be too far disconnected from the main story now, but the character arc build up are being doing in a very well thought way.

You remind me of someone from the show. Oh yeah, Jorah with that P in his eyes.

 

[lapollarecords]

so Stannis got a loan from the Iron Bank. What does that mean? He still has a small army and cant sdo much. Is he going to hire lots of mercenaries from Essos and begin another offensive?

Im becoming a Ramsay fan. He is nuts. To those complaining about the hounds, attack dogs are a really scary opponent in close quarters. They are fast and ferocious. Yara saw Theon wasnt Theon anymore and continuing the fight outnumbered with the dreadfort on alert is suicide.